Public Safety Committee on May 29th, 2018

[Julie Dabrusin, Liberal, Toronto—Danforth, ON]

Part of the reason is I also was looking at an article that I believe was in the Toronto Star and it referred to maybe a lack of communication between different agencies. That's also referred to in Mayor Tory's letter. He was talking about the RCMP and the Canadian firearms program, and trying to exchange information to find those red flags. Can you help me understand what that is about? What is the challenge there?

[Mario Harel]

The challenge is really in terms of access to information.

The information compiled by the Canadian firearms program is used to check whether a firearm is bought legally by an individual who is legally authorized to do so.

Can that information be shared with the RCMP or other police services to identify people who purchase firearms from various sources in large quantities? That is the challenge. Regulations would be needed to make that sharing of information possible.

[Julie Dabrusin, Liberal, Toronto—Danforth, ON]

I understand because in the letter—and it has been referred to, I believe, in other documents as well that we've been receiving—is the fact that up to 50% of the firearms that are being found involved in crimes are domestically sourced. There has been reference to straw purchases. I know that my colleague, Mr. Spengemann, raised it.

You have about half a minute. What would we need to address that issue of straw purchases?

[Supt Gordon Sneddon]

I think that part has already been addressed.

The point I wanted to make was that with regard to any reference to 50%, it is important to recognize that's a qualified number. That's 50% of the firearms that are able to be traced. Not every firearm is able to be traced. Where Toronto police saw a change in the numbers over time.... Historically, for the longest time, the numbers had been 70-30: 70 from the U.S., 30 from Canadian sources. That changed around 2016 or 2017. The Toronto numbers for 2017 were 55-45, but as I understand it, across the rest of Canada the numbers may well be different. But it is important to recognize that it's—

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Thank you.

Thank you, Ms. Dabrusin.

Mr. Fragiskatos, you have five minutes, please.

[Peter Fragiskatos, Liberal, London North Centre, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to the witnesses for being here today.

Mr. Calkins is not here, Mr. Chair, but he did note a few moments ago that he has a desire to hear from gun vendors, which I think is important, but I can put them on the record right now. There is at least one gun vendor, and I have spoken to others who have not spoken publicly, but who are in favour of Bill C-71, who see no problem with it, who do not believe that it's a gun registry. In fact, I would like to read into the record the thoughts on Bill C-71 that one Ontario gun vendor has. His view on the bill is:

[T]here's not been a real big change on the actual aspect of logging the customer's information and keeping on record what they've purchased. We already do it with ammunition, now they're just asking us to do it with guns. By doing it with guns we're going to give the police and the community the tool to begin to track where guns are purchased, how they're being trafficked and how they're being used, so that's not a bad thing.

He continues by saying, Mr. Chair, that Bill C-71 “just gives the police a starting point when they have to investigate a crime”.

Under Bill C-71, as we've heard, at the point of sale, the date of purchase is now going to be required to be kept by gun vendors, as well as the firearms licence number, and the make and model of the firearm.

With that in mind, I would like to ask the police representatives here the following questions:

Under Bill C-71, is sale record information overseen by the RCMP in any way, yes or no?

[Supt Gordon Sneddon]

If you're talking about non-restricted firearms, I would say no.

[Peter Fragiskatos, Liberal, London North Centre, ON]

Are sales records maintained in a centralized database controlled by a government department or agency, yes or no?

[Supt Gordon Sneddon]

The only record is in relation to restricted and prohibited firearms. Non-restricted firearms are detailed in Bill C-71.

[Peter Fragiskatos, Liberal, London North Centre, ON]

Is there anything in the legislation that would grant the government access without a warrant to sales records maintained by a gun vendor, yes or no?

[Supt Gordon Sneddon]

I haven't read anything within the legislation to suggest that.

[Peter Fragiskatos, Liberal, London North Centre, ON]

Would any personal identifying information be kept by the firearms business, yes or no?

[Supt Gordon Sneddon]

I would hope so. From a policing perspective, I would hope so.

[Peter Fragiskatos, Liberal, London North Centre, ON]

I'm talking about personal identifying information.

[Supt Gordon Sneddon]

I don't know the answer to that.

[Peter Fragiskatos, Liberal, London North Centre, ON]

The answer is no.

I use that as—

[Voices]

Oh, oh!

[Peter Fragiskatos, Liberal, London North Centre, ON]

Have you read the legislation?

[A voice]

Yes, I have.

[Peter Fragiskatos, Liberal, London North Centre, ON]

It's very clear that personal identifying information—

[A voice]

Main address, phone number....

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Mr. Motz, this is Mr. Fragiskatos' time.

[Peter Fragiskatos, Liberal, London North Centre, ON]

This is not a gun registry. I think that important point needs to be put on the record. We continue to talk about it, but this is not a gun registry, despite the misleading ads that we continue to see, especially on social media and in other places.

Mr. Mauser, I want to ask you a question about some of your research. You have published on these issues. One of your articles is widely cited by the NRA in the United States and by the gun lobby in the United States. This article is called “Would Banning Firearms Reduce Murder and Suicide?” and was published in the Harvard Journal of Law & Public Policy. You co-authored it with Don Kates.

Is that a peer-reviewed journal?

[Dr. Gary Mauser]

It is an academic journal that is reviewed by law students, as are all legal journals.

[Peter Fragiskatos, Liberal, London North Centre, ON]

The journal describes itself, or at least the editors, as a student-edited law review that provides a forum for “conservative and libertarian legal scholarship”.

The journal's past contents include an entirely repudiated article called “What is Marriage?” which argued that gay marriage is morally wrong. There are other articles in this vein of thinking.