Evidence of meeting #117 for Public Safety and National Security in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was nations.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Liberal
Michel Picard Liberal Montarville, QC
Thank you.
I have a question for the Ontario Federation of Anglers and Hunters.
You raised the issue of the best commercial practices for arms retailers. I imagine, as Mr. Hipwell pointed it out, that these practices are the subject of improvements so that the enterprises keep track of the commercial transactions they engage in.
In your opinion, could that information be compared to a firearms registry?
Manager, Fish and Wildlife Services, Ontario Federation of Anglers and Hunters
Well, that's not a loaded question.
Manager, Fish and Wildlife Services, Ontario Federation of Anglers and Hunters
When we're talking about retailer record-keeping, and we look at it from a best management practices perspective, that's done a lot. Wolverine Supplies would likely be able to talk to this better than we can because it's their business. It's for different things, such as for insurance purposes and compliance, that they have as a business owner or vendor. That's one of the real reasons it's done.
Is it a registry? Whenever you're collecting and keeping records that have access to it, it can be considered a form of registry. Is it the long gun registry that we knew a few years ago? No, that's absolutely different, but I think it is still a collection of records, which in some way is a form of registry. How those records are used will determine what kind of registry it is.
Liberal
Michel Picard Liberal Montarville, QC
Thank you.
Ms. Bear, I'd like to draw your attention to an ambivalent situation and I need your knowledge, your traditions and your culture to make the necessary distinctions.
Our goal is certainly not to withdraw privileges from you, nor to limit the cultural advantages you are entitled to. We also agree that no firearm should find its way into the hands of criminals or gangs. We are aware of that problem.
The problem I want to submit to you today is of another order. According to other witnesses that appeared before the committee, the presence of firearms in a home constitutes a threat of family violence and keeps women and children in a state of insecurity.
How can you manage that issue? If background checks are not sufficiently rigorous, how can we monitor the presence of firearms in a residence? How can we intervene to reduce this threat, which targets mostly women?
Vice-Chief, Saskatchewan Region, Assembly of First Nations
Thank you for making that point.
You really have to look at this from a lens. In our first nations community, we know our people, and I think we work hard to put an end to child and family violence. When you look at the hunter.... I'm coming from a perspective where you put food on the table, and the wild meat, the diet, is part of the culture. I don't think dangerous offenders or.... I work towards harsher laws for perpetrators who commit crimes against indigenous women and girls. The other bill that we're trying to get through is Bill S-215, Senator Lillian Dyck's bill.
Background checks could be in terms of maybe five years, but going back 20 years...because in terms of our culture and community, we work towards reconciliation. I think this is where you look to the nation. We know our people. I know in my first nation, the chief and council have banned certain individuals from hunting for certain transgressions, but like I said, leave it to the communities. That's their jurisdiction.
Liberal
Michel Picard Liberal Montarville, QC
I have a question for the representatives of Firearms Instructors Association Canada.
From the outset, you raised the importance of being well informed. The need to know what you are dealing with is a matter of common sense, all the more so when we are talking about handling a device that is normally used for lethal purposes.
You say that there must be adequate training. Is that to ensure that people have a better understanding of the lethal potential of firearms, or is it to make them better understand how they work, so that they can acquire better firearms and more of them?
President, Firearms Instructors Association Canada
First of all, communication is the most important element in the political system, and right now the rural or general public are confused by the terminology the federal government has instituted. One example is what a non-restricted firearm is; it's a rifle or a shotgun. What is a restricted firearm? It's a handgun—a pistol or a revolver. What is a prohibited firearm? It's an automatic weapon. Assault rifles fall into the automatic weapon category, and they are indeed fodder for the news media, the broadcasting, and so on.
What we need is a system whereby the general public has access to the particular information that identifies those categories. I propose that you consider a bill of sale, available with their firearms training. The bill of sale would include a place for both the buyer and the seller, and also the list of descriptors that identify what they have. At the bottom, you could put a link to the Canadian firearms safety centre, so that the buyer or seller can contact them and say, “I have one that's borderline and, therefore, am concerned to know whether it's legal or illegal for me to buy it.”
Liberal
The Chair Liberal John McKay
We're going to have to leave that answer there, unfortunately, Mr. Martin. Mr. Picard's time has finished.
Mr. Motz, take five minutes, please.
Conservative
Glen Motz Conservative Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you to all the witnesses for being here today.
Ms. Bear, I'm going to ask you a question first. I appreciate your testimony today and the honesty with which you've provided it.
Are you aware whether the Assembly of First Nations was consulted on this bill prior to its introduction?
Vice-Chief, Saskatchewan Region, Assembly of First Nations
According to my briefing notes, I don't see what we define as “consultation”. At FSIN, for example, we have a consultation policy that is very inclusive—chiefs, councils, and communities. I would thus have to say no.
I know that consultation has always been the issue here and that we need to do better when it comes to inclusiveness, especially when there is a potential infringement of our treaty rights.
Conservative
Glen Motz Conservative Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB
Based on that, then, is it possible that the Assembly of First Nations would launch a constitutional challenge on this bill as a result?
Vice-Chief, Saskatchewan Region, Assembly of First Nations
Yes, absolutely. I think that whenever there is a potential infringement, we have treaty rights protection tribunals that watch very carefully whenever transgressions or issues like this come up. Yes, it's eyes wide open.
Conservative
Glen Motz Conservative Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB
Thank you.
I want to allow you an opportunity to expand briefly on comments you made during your presentation, ma'am, about.... There is a gun violence—or a gang and gun violence—problem in this country, and first nations are not immune to that circumstance.
Do you believe—and you can expand upon this, because you said it doesn't apply—that this bill helps in any way? You said it didn't. Can you explain that a bit further?
Vice-Chief, Saskatchewan Region, Assembly of First Nations
I really don't see how laws are going to change the gang culture. It's there. It's going to be there until we deal with the root causes—poverty, education, housing. There are social and economic issues that could be focused on, but I don't believe restricting guns is going to stop the violence that exists because of those underlying issues.
Someone who is involved in a gang is usually not a law-abiding citizen. The thing is that our experiences as first nations have not been positive, so sometimes disobedience of the law exists because of our experiences and systemic racism.
Conservative
Glen Motz Conservative Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB
Thank you very much, Ms. Bear.
To the Ontario Federation of Anglers and Hunters, was your organization consulted at all prior to this bill being introduced?
Manager, Fish and Wildlife Services, Ontario Federation of Anglers and Hunters
Since this government took power, I think there was an understanding that there was going to be firearms legislation changes coming. It was in the platform and we understood that. There was direct engagement between our organization and the minister's office to try to understand what that was going to look like.
Right from the beginning, this mirrored that platform, so I think we kind of expected that these things would come out, specifically—
Conservative
Glen Motz Conservative Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB
Expecting it to come out because it's part of an election platform does not mean that you were consulted prior to it becoming the bill that's introduced today.
Manager, Fish and Wildlife Services, Ontario Federation of Anglers and Hunters
If your question is whether we saw the text of the legislation before it was tabled, the answer is no.
Conservative
Glen Motz Conservative Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB
Were you consulted on the development of it?
Manager, Fish and Wildlife Services, Ontario Federation of Anglers and Hunters
We did have conversations—not me personally—as an organization about how some of those things might look in the legislation, based on those election platforms. That's why I drew that conclusion as to where they came from.
Conservative
Glen Motz Conservative Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB
I've heard that insurance companies are suggesting or potentially demanding that gun-shop owners obtain business record insurance for the protection of their records should there be a data breach if this bill is passed.
Can you speak to that, or have you heard anything in your experience based on that?
Liberal
The Chair Liberal John McKay
That's an important question, but you're going to have to work it back into some other answer.
I'll turn to Ms. Dabrusin, for five minutes, please.
Liberal
Julie Dabrusin Liberal Toronto—Danforth, ON
Thank you.
One of the things we have talked about a fair bit in some of our last sessions is about straw purchases. We've had evidence from the police, for example, that the number of domestic-source crime guns is growing.
I am wondering if I could direct my questions to Wolverine, because you are in the business of selling guns.
What would we be able to do to help you flag if someone were purchasing a large number of guns and there was a possibility that they would be purchasing guns to divert them into the illegal market?