Evidence of meeting #120 for Public Safety and National Security in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was firearm.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Director General, Policing and Firearms Policy, Department of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness
That is not to suggest that transfers that are occurring now under the law as it currently stands are in any way illegal or deficient. It's that Bill C-71 proposes a change to the current process.
Conservative
Blaine Calkins Conservative Red Deer—Lacombe, AB
I'm not suggesting that you're suggesting that. I'm suggesting that the purpose for making these changes legislatively, and the government's position, is that there is a problem here that needs to be fixed, that there are illegal transfers going on. That's why the reference number is there.
I haven't had a single firearms owner in the community come to me and say they're worried that the firearm they bought might not have been a legal transaction. I don't have that problem. This is a solution in search of a problem, as far as I'm concerned.
I'm trying to figure out what the public safety value of this particular change actually is, other than that the reference number you're suggesting, Mr. Koops—and I'm not even going to disagree with you—provides a number that the transaction is valid. There are other ways to provide that it's valid, by simply saying to please verify the transferor's licence in writing, online, or by phone with the registrar.
When I go to a gun shop to buy a firearm or to buy ammunition, I must produce, contrary to what.... I mean, everybody who retails checks the licence. They have to.
Director, Firearms Regulatory Services, Canadian Firearms Program, Royal Canadian Mounted Police
They don't.
Conservative
Director, Firearms Regulatory Services, Canadian Firearms Program, Royal Canadian Mounted Police
In fact, by law they do not have to check the licence. They just have to be sufficiently convinced or certain that the individual is in possession of a licence. They do not, in fact, have to check the licence.
Conservative
Blaine Calkins Conservative Red Deer—Lacombe, AB
And if they were unclear about that, they would actually—
Director, Firearms Regulatory Services, Canadian Firearms Program, Royal Canadian Mounted Police
They should. Due diligence would suggest that they should.
Director, Firearms Regulatory Services, Canadian Firearms Program, Royal Canadian Mounted Police
I just want to clarify that there is not an absolute requirement to check the licence.
Conservative
Blaine Calkins Conservative Red Deer—Lacombe, AB
That's fine. That's a different clause that we're going to be talking about.
In this particular case, all that's really happening is that reference number is being provided. I'm asking the question, what is the public safety value for that?
I understand from a police investigation perspective, but that happens post an event actually happening. They wouldn't be doing an investigation unless there was already an incident.
It's not preventing or protecting anybody, from a public safety perspective. I'm simply asking why this isn't sufficient. This is the current law right now. This is basically reverting to what the current legislation or the intent of the current legislation is. Right now, what are the problems that this is going to resolve?
I don't have any firearms owners coming to me and saying they want the protection of a reference number. I don't have a single law-abiding firearms owner in my constituency saying, “I really want the protection of a reference number for the transactions.” I don't have one.
Please tell me what public safety value this has.
Director General, Policing and Firearms Policy, Department of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness
I can point you back, sir, to the comments of the minister when he was here, which were that the current process does not require the verification of a licence. It is voluntary to do so. He has proposed that it is in the interest of public safety that anyone selling a firearm verify that the person who is purchasing the firearm hold a valid licence.
The act as currently drafted simply requires that a person have no reason not to believe someone is eligible to purchase the firearm. The minister has suggested that creating, in law, a positive obligation on anyone selling a firearm to verify that the person purchasing the firearm has a valid licence to purchase it is in the interest of public safety. By extension, it is in the interest of the person who is selling the firearm that they have some proof to be able to show that they did in fact check the licence, that they were assured by the Canadian firearms program that the licence was valid, and they are issued a reference number to provide them with that proof that they have done their due diligence.
Conservative
Blaine Calkins Conservative Red Deer—Lacombe, AB
Mr. Koops, sir, does the department have any correspondence from any Canadians who are law-abiding firearms owners suggesting that they want the protection of a reference number?
Director General, Policing and Firearms Policy, Department of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness
I don't know the answer to that question.
Conservative
Glen Motz Conservative Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB
Mr. O'Reilly, I just want to go back to your comment. Ms. Clarke, I believe, has it.
Can you read section 101 of the Firearms Act for me, please?
Counsel, Criminal Law Policy Section, Department of Justice
Would you like me to read the entire section?
Conservative
Glen Motz Conservative Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB
I'm sorry. I meant the Criminal Code, not the Firearms Act.
Counsel, Criminal Law Policy Section, Department of Justice
Do you want me to read the section to you?
Conservative
Glen Motz Conservative Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB
Yes, please, not to me but to the committee.
Counsel, Criminal Law Policy Section, Department of Justice
It states:
101(1) Every person commits an offence who transfers a...firearm,...a prohibited weapon, a restricted weapon, a prohibited device, any ammunition or any prohibited ammunition to any person otherwise than under the authority of the Firearms Act or any other Act of Parliament or any...[regulations] made under an Act of Parliament.
(2) Every person who commits an offence under subsection (1)
(a) is guilty of an indictable offence and liable to imprisonment for a term not exceeding five years; or
(b) is guilty of an offence punishable on summary conviction.
Conservative
Glen Motz Conservative Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB
Mr. O'Reilly, you indicated just a few minutes ago that there is no requirement in law for a gun shop to ensure that the person they are selling a firearm to is a licensed firearm owner or is in lawful possession of a licence.
Director, Firearms Regulatory Services, Canadian Firearms Program, Royal Canadian Mounted Police
Well, if I said that, I meant to indicate that the firearms business does not need to positively verify that the licence is valid—
Conservative
Glen Motz Conservative Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB
Well, in fact, if they do not have a licence and they sell a firearm today, before Bill C-71, they run the risk of being criminally sanctioned and can receive a five-year prison sentence. Is that correct?
