Public Safety Committee on June 7th, 2018

[Rob O'Reilly]

I'm sorry. I don't have exact numbers in front of me.

I know that the elements of Bill C-71 that were being proposed were subject to an implementation plan that would put appropriate human and monetary resources in place. I believe the costing of that would be part of a future Treasury Board submission.

[Pierre Paul-Hus, Conservative, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

I see.

So you don't have that information, but do you think that it exists and that we can get it?

[Rob O'Reilly]

I don't know....

[Randall Koops]

I would say not yet. In the normal course of implementation, the government, after royal assent, begins to plan for the coming into force of the various provisions. Of course, we don't know in what final form the bill will be, so until the bill has actually been adopted by Parliament, it's premature to say that the act, after the passage of the bill, will require certain things to be done.

[Pierre Paul-Hus, Conservative, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

I can understand.

You always have to wait for all the details before you can come up with a final cost assessment. However, the fact remains that, when the legislation is developed, implementing a reference number system and the obligations imposed make it necessary to hire employees. I imagine some resource needs assessment has been conducted. If not a final assessment, has anyone at least done an initial assessment?

The government has decided on a date, June 30, 2018, when it will come into force, which means very soon.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

He is asking questions that are probably beyond your ability to respond. It's a legitimate question, but I don't see that you are able to respond to that.

Mr. Paul-Hus.

[Pierre Paul-Hus, Conservative, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

I understand, and I don't want to put you in a difficult situation either. You don't have the information, and I accept that.

That's also why we had asked for more meetings so we could delve a little more into the subject.

However, that's not at all your fault.

The purpose of amendment CPC-24 is really to ensure that the records are deleted when they are no longer necessary and to guarantee that that is done efficiently and safely.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Mr. Motz.

[Glen Motz, Conservative, Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

With regard to costs, if you don't know the numbers, Mr. Koops, would it be reasonable to assume then that they will appear in a departmental performance report at some point down the road?

[Randall Koops]

I couldn't speak to that, I'm afraid, sir. Sorry.

[Glen Motz, Conservative, Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB]

Okay. That's not something that you prepare?

[Randall Koops]

Not me, no. Sorry.

[Glen Motz, Conservative, Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB]

Okay.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Ms. Dabrusin.

[Julie Dabrusin, Liberal, Toronto—Danforth, ON]

I'd like to jump in because we had PAL instructors here who talked about fraudulent licences. We heard evidence about the need to verify the validity of licences, so I'm having a hard time understanding why we're deviating from that point. It was PAL instructors who told us that, so I just want to get that on the record.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

We'll vote on amendment CPC-24.

(Amendment negatived [See Minutes of Proceedings])

Next is amendment CPC-25.

Mr. Paul-Hus, you have the floor once again.

[Pierre Paul-Hus, Conservative, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Amendment CPC-25 concerns a reference number validity period of which we don't see the point.

From the moment a reference number is issued, a transaction is imminent, regardless of whether it is conducted on the day or the next day. We don't understand why there is an expiry date for a reference number. The reference number is issued, and we don't see the need for an actual expiry date.

This may cause another problem. If, for reason x, the transaction is not completed on the day or the next day but at a later date because the person did not remember the expiry date, that will constitute an offence because the act prescribes a date.

In our opinion, from the moment the reference number is assigned, the transaction will normally be completed as soon as possible. However, if, for reason x, it is not completed as soon as possible, that could cause a problem.

I want to thank our friends at the end of the table for being here and for their efforts. I know it isn't easy for them, but they are essential to our work. Otherwise we would be talking in a void.

So I would ask you to explain that to me.

[Randall Koops]

The notion of the validity period is intended to prevent a situation where a reference number is issued concerning the licence of a purchaser where the purchaser, for whatever reason, no longer retains that licence eligibility, for example, if a person has had their licence rescinded or if they are subject to a prohibition order, or some such thing.

If a reference number were valid ad infinitum, there is a chance the licence could be suspended, revoked, or whatever during the period that the reference number was purporting to cover as being valid. Firearms regulations must be tabled in Parliament and available for scrutiny by committees of both Houses. By prescribing in regulation the validity period, the scheme ensures that a person with a reference number can transfer the sale of a firearm only within the reasonable period that the check covers the licence as being valid.

If we remember that there is no information being kept about the firearms involved in relation to the reference number—it is simply about the vendor and the purchaser—the reference number provides the vendor with proof that they have done their due diligence. However, that would have to be subject to some time limitation, lest we run the risk that the validity of the purchaser's licence changes, or expires, in the interim.

[Pierre Paul-Hus, Conservative, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

So there has to be a form of supervision for there to be some kind of control. There has to be a system that sends out a notification when a reference number is issued. The system expects to receive a transaction confirmation. Every time a reference number is issued, and since the number is only valid for a certain period of time, if the person does not conduct the transaction that same day, a signal will therefore have to be sent.

[Randall Koops]

That period will be prescribed in advance. In other words, even if there is a reference number, it will never be known whether the transfer was made. It may occur that you don't buy the firearm,

you change your mind , buyer's remorse, or whatever, or perhaps never entered into the purchase in the first place.

[Pierre Paul-Hus, Conservative, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

That's why we think it isn't logical to fix a validity date.

I understand what you said at the outset, but, from the moment the number is issued and no connection is made later on, what's the point in having a validity date for a reference number?

[Randall Koops]

The date is associated with no firearm whatever. The date is associated with the validity of a licence.

[Pierre Paul-Hus, Conservative, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

Yes, but the reference number is requested in order to conduct a transaction.

For example, if I want to sell my firearm to Mr. Calkins, I'll be asked for a reference number, won't I?

[Randall Koops]

Not necessarily. In fact, it could be in order to conduct several transactions or even none.

[Pierre Paul-Hus, Conservative, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

Hmm. Is that clear to everyone?

What do you say, Mr. Calkins?