Public Safety Committee on June 12th, 2018

[Sven Spengemann, Liberal, Mississauga—Lakeshore, ON]

Right.

[Shannon Stubbs, Conservative, Lakeland, AB]

There are husbands who are worried every time they leave the property and leave their families behind. Women who frankly, like me on occasion now.... I live on a farm on a highway, and every home has been broken into up and down the highway. While my husband is snoring like a log, I randomly find myself pacing around at 4:30 a.m., in our sunroom, scanning the ditches and the highway when the dogs are barking, because we're the last one on the highway; we're vulnerable. That's the feeling that people have.

[Sven Spengemann, Liberal, Mississauga—Lakeshore, ON]

The type of property crime that's of most common concern—and there's a range—is whether it is organized. Is it car theft rings, truck theft rings, theft rings that are looking at farm equipment, or is it something more petty than that—people breaking in and stealing a TV, stealing some cash, stealing some jewellery?

[Shannon Stubbs, Conservative, Lakeland, AB]

It seems to be a combination of both. One thing I hear a lot of frustration about from both law enforcement and community members is repeated offences. There's a “slap on the wrist” response, and then in no time at all they are back out doing the exact same things. Often they are known either to community members or to law enforcement.

I didn't want to add that part into the motion, but I suspect that through the course of your assessment, you will hear some concerns around wanting tougher sentencing and stopping that revolving door.

[Sven Spengemann, Liberal, Mississauga—Lakeshore, ON]

I didn't want to lose the opportunity to have you here and not ask you about gender dimensions. Are you concerned about intimate partner gender-based violence in rural Canada, and if so, what manifestation is that concern taking through people you're in touch with?

[Shannon Stubbs, Conservative, Lakeland, AB]

I personally do not know the statistics or whether there is a verified distinction between domestic violence in rural as compared with urban communities. I suspect it's an issue that crosses socio-economic classes, geography, and demographics, but when I was discussing the proposal of the NDP amendment, they did raise this as an issue.

[Sven Spengemann, Liberal, Mississauga—Lakeshore, ON]

Is it worth the committee's time to look at it as a function of the downturn that you described in economic opportunity, perhaps, in parts of western Canada, which potentially increases or elevates intimate partner violence?

[Shannon Stubbs, Conservative, Lakeland, AB]

I wouldn't want to limit the topics you discuss, although I would say on behalf of my constituents that really emphasizing the assessment of front-line law enforcement in rural communities is the number one thing.

[Sven Spengemann, Liberal, Mississauga—Lakeshore, ON]

Thanks very much.

I think that's my time.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Mr. Paul-Hus, you have the floor for five minutes.

[Pierre Paul-Hus, Conservative, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mrs. Stubbs, some of my colleagues asked questions to understand crimes like this that are currently being committed in rural areas.

As you mentioned earlier, some thugs or young hooligans are already known to people in the community. What I would like to know is whether there is a self-defence problem. People on farms or in rural areas are all armed, or at least most of them are, because they need their weapons to kill the bears or wolves that prowl about. I would like to know if they tend to defend themselves because there's a problem with police intervention.

[Shannon Stubbs, Conservative, Lakeland, AB]

Yes. I did not include that aspect in the text of my motion, because I very much wanted to be able to achieve cross-partisan support so that your committee could undertake this work. I suspect, though, that as you go through this assessment you will hear from people the same thing I hear, which is a concern or a feeling, when people are forced into the position because of long response times, that they have no other option than to protect themselves and their families and their property, and a concern that after people do so, they don't want to be revictimized for having had to do it.

[Pierre Paul-Hus, Conservative, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

Have some individuals who have had to defend themselves to protect their families or their property been accused of doing so?

[Shannon Stubbs, Conservative, Lakeland, AB]

Yes, there is a case happening in Alberta right now, and there have been others that we all know about in recent months. Then, there are lots of stories that I hear from people in Lakeland, including that of a very elderly farmer—you know the farmers who keep saying they'll retire but who just can't quit. Recently, in one of the communities in Lakeland there was a guy who broke onto the farm of a very elderly man and the guy ended up holding him to the ground with a gun to his head. The guy eventually was scared off by neighbours who came over.

People ask what options they have, other than to try to protect themselves and their families, in those situations.

[Pierre Paul-Hus, Conservative, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

In other words, in rural regions, in Alberta as elsewhere in Canada, people feel that they aren't safe and that they have to take responsibility for their own protection. This is a problem we must also take into account in our evaluation.

[Shannon Stubbs, Conservative, Lakeland, AB]

Yes. There's a young guy who runs the Facebook group Farmers Against Rural Crime who said something at a meeting last month that really struck me. He said locks only keep honest people out.

They have concerns, particularly around discussions of firearm ownership for law-abiding rural Canadians and the way they use them in their daily lives, but also in terms of feeling vulnerable in their homes.

[Pierre Paul-Hus, Conservative, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

My colleague asked you if land management was different when the provincial police forces were present, for example the Ontario Provincial Police or the Sûreté du Québec.

To your knowledge, do Ontario and Quebec have the same problems as Alberta and Saskatchewan, or is it totally different?

[Shannon Stubbs, Conservative, Lakeland, AB]

I think this is an issue that your committee should undertake. I suspect you'll find that those rural communities that only are served by RCMP officers, who are stretched thin across those geographical regions and then certainly, as is the case in Lakeland, have often dual responsibilities, serving indigenous communities in the region as well.... I suspect you'll find a real difference between those that have provincial police—

[Pierre Paul-Hus, Conservative, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

My question is very political: do you think that the provinces of Alberta, Manitoba and Saskatchewan should think about having a provincial police service like the ones in Quebec and Ontario to ensure their own safety without depending on the RCMP? Given the evolution of society, should we discuss these things?

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Please respond in 25 words or less.

[Shannon Stubbs, Conservative, Lakeland, AB]

I think that's a decision which provincial residents and provincial government should make. I have to say that, while I think there's a valid discussion around that issue, there is also, at the same time, a deep and abiding love for the RCMP in rural communities across all those provinces because of the RCMP's long-term presence and responsibility for the communities that they have been members of for a long time.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

That was a little bit more than 25 words.

[Shannon Stubbs, Conservative, Lakeland, AB]

Sorry.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Ms. Dabrusin was next up, and we did lose a little bit of time.

If you wish to ask a question for a couple of minutes, I'm happy to arbitrarily extend the time.

[Julie Dabrusin, Liberal, Toronto—Danforth, ON]

It's the last two minutes; I was inclined to let people go.

You can, if you want to, give us suggestions afterwards. I know that somebody asked you about additional witnesses.