Evidence of meeting #127 for Public Safety and National Security in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was offenders.
A video is available from Parliament.
4:10 p.m.
C/Supt Fraser Macaulay
Okay. Well, he has general direction, but not on case-specific incidents.
4:10 p.m.
Parry Sound—Muskoka, CPC
Okay. That's good to know, because historically I can think of various ministers, such as Minister Day, who issued a directive regarding first degree murderers spending a certain amount of time in maximum security, or Minister Toews, who issued a directive banning the practice of prison pizza parties. However, you would say that is not specific but general.
Could a minister, if he so desires, have a say on the transfer of child killers to a minimum security facility when they are nowhere near the parole eligibility date? Is that something that a minister could do?
4:10 p.m.
C/Supt Fraser Macaulay
Again, it's going to be tested through the courts, so you're asking me to then do the next step of what the courts would view that as.
There are mechanisms in place...I mean, you're well aware. You're part of the parliamentary workings from which laws and so on get formulated. The present laws don't have those conditions within them.
4:10 p.m.
Parry Sound—Muskoka, CPC
However, it is true, based on some of the other examples I gave, that a direction crafted and issued by a minister could carve out, let's say, a child killer in the system, and say that those people in the system have to be in a maximum security situation and confinement for a period of time. Is that not correct?
4:10 p.m.
C/Supt Fraser Macaulay
Well, I'm going to repeat again that it would be tested through the courts. We've done similar things, and we've had issues, even challenges of individuals. We base our assessments on individual case management assessments.
Laws are one thing. For principles and policies, there are processes in place that get tested all time.
4:10 p.m.
Parry Sound—Muskoka, CPC
Absolutely.
Do you recall Minister Day issuing a directive requiring first degree murderers to spend a certain amount of time in maximum security?
4:10 p.m.
C/Supt Fraser Macaulay
Sorry; I've only been in the organization 10 years, and that was prior to my arrival if that is the case.
4:10 p.m.
Parry Sound—Muskoka, CPC
No worry. Stockwell Day is getting a bit old now.
However, the point is that you can issue a directive on a specific class of individuals within the system and require them to be in maximum security for a period of time. That's the point I'm making.
4:15 p.m.
C/Supt Fraser Macaulay
The issue there is you're now interfering with their liberties, and as soon as you're interfering with their liberties, then it becomes a test in the courts, and there are laws around those things. It's a different thing—
4:15 p.m.
Parry Sound—Muskoka, CPC
Right: interfering with liberties is the whole idea of prison. I just want to make that point clear—
4:15 p.m.
C/Supt Fraser Macaulay
Yes, but the courts have been very clear that there—
4:15 p.m.
Parry Sound—Muskoka, CPC
Can I go back to another point, that you and I believed—
September 27th, 2018 / 4:15 p.m.
Liberal
4:15 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal John McKay
I appreciate the assistance of my honourable colleague in chair management. However, I don't think Mr. Clement has reached the persistent stage yet.
4:15 p.m.
Parry Sound—Muskoka, CPC
Thank you, Chair.
Could I just go back to something that you affirmed, which was that you believed that the minister could not issue a specific directive on a specific person, right?
4:15 p.m.
C/Supt Fraser Macaulay
Correct.
4:15 p.m.
Parry Sound—Muskoka, CPC
In 2001, I actually was a member of the Ontario legislature—a cabinet minister, in fact, in the Harris government—and I recall in that year that there was a prisoner who was being transferred. He was a murderer of a police officer, I believe in Sudbury, being transferred to a facility in British Columbia that earned the nickname Club Fed.
I believe at the time that Premier Harris was up in arms, as was most of Ontario society, that this cop-killer was going to a minimum security facility on Vancouver Island. There was a unanimous decision of the Ontario legislature to condemn that, and I recall that the minister, Lawrence MacAulay, who serves in the cabinet now, actually reversed the decision to send that individual to minimum security and made sure that he was held in a higher security prison.
Do you recall that at all? Would that be considered a precedent that is analogous to the current situation, sir?
4:15 p.m.
C/Supt Fraser Macaulay
It would be previous to my time in the service. However, in many decisions that took place in the 1980s and 1990s and even as recently as 2000, the courts continue, as you are well aware, with jurisprudence and other things where limitations come into play, and they make court decisions that restrict—
4:15 p.m.
Parry Sound—Muskoka, CPC
Is there any evidence that the minister has received that advice, sir?
4:15 p.m.
Parry Sound—Muskoka, CPC
I believe my time is over, but thank you very much for your answers.
4:15 p.m.
Liberal
Michel Picard Liberal Montarville, QC
Thank you.
Ms. Kelly, from what I understand, healing lodges can accommodate both mothers and their children.
4:15 p.m.
Commissioner, Correctional Service of Canada
In the healing lodges, as in any facility, let's say if there's an event, yes, it's possible that women will bring their children.
