Public Safety Committee on Oct. 16th, 2018

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Once you got to be a politician, you seem to be less concise.

[Jim Eglinski]

I thought it was his age.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

For the final five minutes, we have Mr. Tan. Welcome to the committee.

[Geng Tan, Liberal, Don Valley North, ON]

Thank you.

Thank you, Chair.

Several years ago, there was a 50% budget cut on the RCMP's operating budget. I'm sure that this cut caused some impact on the RCMP's ability to address those challenges on crime in either urban or rural areas.

I wonder how the RCMP has dealt with this kind of shortage in the budget, especially when you are addressing the challenge of crimes in rural areas.

[A/Commr Byron Boucher]

I could start off on that one.

I don't know specifically about Alberta, but we're here representing contract policing, and those budgets are decided by the provinces and territories. In terms of a 50% cut, I'm not sure what you're referring to in this particular—

[Geng Tan, Liberal, Don Valley North, ON]

I can mention this one. It was called the deficit reduction action plan. Within that plan, there was a 50% cut.

[A/Commr Byron Boucher]

That would not have affected contract policing. That maybe would have affected us corporately and at the federal level, but not in the contract itself. Those budgets are specifically controlled by the provinces and territories.

I can say that this particular government most recently has increased funding for first nations policing, and in the next two fiscal years the RCMP will be getting another 17 positions in each fiscal year for first nations policing positions in the community tripartite agreements.

[Geng Tan, Liberal, Don Valley North, ON]

Thank you.

Let me ask quite a different question.

Often in the urban areas, when gunshots cause some victims and also put the safety of innocent citizens in jeopardy, quite often—I'm not saying 100%—there are handguns involved in these gunshots.

Based on your knowledge and/or experience, how often or how possible is it those handguns involved in these gunshots were—and I'm asking the source of the handguns—smuggled in and stored in the rural areas and eventually transported and sold in urban areas, the cities?

[A/Commr Byron Boucher]

I don't have any stats specific to handguns and/or long guns. Most of the violence that we deal with, because of the areas we police, involve long guns.

[Geng Tan, Liberal, Don Valley North, ON]

The question I actually want to ask is this: What if there was legislation that banned handguns in the urban areas or in the big cities, and—

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

I don't think we should be inviting police officers to comment on legislation, anticipated or otherwise. They are police officers. They fulfill the law as it exists, not as it might exist—or not.

[Geng Tan, Liberal, Don Valley North, ON]

Okay.

I will share the rest of my time with my colleague.

[Peter Fragiskatos, Liberal, London North Centre, ON]

Thank you very much.

In our discussions today, the point about data has come up, and I think it's important. This comes right from Statistics Canada. They've compiled a number of facts and figures relating to criminality in Canada, as is their job.

I think the crime severity index is important for the committee to take note of, Mr. Chair, and I'm glad to supply the report. The crime severity index measures the volume of crime and the relative seriousness of the crime. In this index, for example, more weight is given to a murder as compared with a bicycle theft. A lot of criminologists have said that this measure could be more useful than the actual crime rate. We can look at this and at how it impacts particular provinces that are of concern to the committee.

In Alberta, for example, over a 10-year period of 2006 to 2016, there was a 12% decrease in crime severity. In Manitoba from 2006 to 2016, there was a 27% decrease in crime severity. In Saskatchewan from 2006 to 2016, there was a 13% decrease in crime severity.

I raise this because at the outset, when Mr. Tewfik and Mr. Ferguson were making their presentations, they said that they've seen a decrease in rates of crime in particular areas. I think Alberta was mentioned specifically. I think we weigh all these factors and we get to a conclusion that yes, there is crime, but it is on the decline. If we look at it from the severity index perspective, I think some positive developments have transpired over the past 10 or 12 years.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Thank you, Mr. Fragiskatos.

As I sit here and listen to the statistics going back and forth, I think there are some things that we can invite police officers to comment on and maybe some that we can't invite police officers to comment on.

First of all, before I thank you for your presentation and your service, I want to be clear among members just exactly what it is we are asking you to comment on.

Ms. Dabrusin was presenting statistics. Mr. Motz had another observation. Mr. Eglinski had some other material that he was using in the previous.... What specifically is it we are asking these very capable witnesses to comment on with regard to the material we dealt with today?

[Julie Dabrusin, Liberal, Toronto—Danforth, ON]

I believe the statistics report I was referring to was part of what the analysts provided. I can provide the date and description of it: “Police-reported crime statistics, 2017: Released at 8:30 a.m. Eastern time in The Daily, Monday, July 23, 2018”.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Mr. Motz, were you quoting from the same area?

[Glen Motz, Conservative, Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB]

Yes.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Mr. Eglinski, was it something different?

[Jim Eglinski]

I was going on a different line. I was trying to find, from the first witness.... I couldn't understand where her logic was, and I was trying to ask her whether she thought they needed more police in rural Canada—

[Glen Motz, Conservative, Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB]

His document is “Police resources in Canada, 2017”, dated March 28, 2018.

[Jim Eglinski]

That's right. I referred to it earlier.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Then Mr. Fragiskatos brought in some weighting analysis, which I think is separate again.

[Peter Fragiskatos, Liberal, London North Centre, ON]

I was not looking for a comment on that. With all respect, and I have much respect for the RCMP, I was just trying to put that on the record.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Okay.

Are we clear on what we're talking about?

Go ahead, Mr. Motz.

[Glen Motz, Conservative, Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB]

I just want to make sure the committee is clear on what Mr. Fragiskatos just tried to do—muddy the water.

The crime severity index changed in 2006. It changed severely in 2006. If you had a break and enter at your house and someone was sexually assaulted, and then someone stole your car and stole something else, the only thing that would be reported in the crime severity index would be the most serious offence. All of the other ones would not be included in the crime severity index—