Public Safety Committee on Oct. 16th, 2018

[Michel Picard, Liberal, Montarville, QC]

Thank you.

First, Ms. Jolibois, I don't think anyone here is challenging equal rights. No one disputes the fact that all Canadians, without distinction, are entitled to the same protection. I think this notion is clear to everyone.

That being said, the study focuses on rural crime. Although one of your comments is about police services, the nature of the policing, it is important to understand that policing must meet a specific need, apart, of course, from the distance between the various municipalities. Your constituency is as big as Poland. A number of members of Parliament represent constituencies as large as a European country. That is not disputed either.

We must be able to identify the particularity, the characteristic that defines rural crime. Clearly, if that type of crime is not so different from crime in the suburbs or cities, it means that the policing is not managed in the same way.

We have received comments about how different rural areas are from urban areas. Are you able to explain this distinction to us or to clarify the characteristics of what is known as rural crime?

[Georgina Jolibois, NDP, Desnethé—Missinippi—Churchill River, SK]

Again, it's services.

I must emphasize that law enforcement agencies in northern and rural parts require services. There's a requirement for more members and for the equipment to operate the detachments, to make sure that the RCMP has the resources it needs to deal with various criminal activities that are experienced in cities or anywhere else in Canada. Communities that are willing to participate in working within their communities.... If a community is not willing to do its part in working with the RCMP, let's say, is not going anywhere. In the experience of elders and indigenous communities, they require funding for the victim services program and they require funding for the peacekeepers program. They require funding for seatbelt programs and child safety programs. For example, another criminal activity for which every community requires assistance, from rural to north to urban centres, is property crime. Every community requires funding more resources to help officers with property crime or vandalism at various levels. Again, without resources, you can't do your job.

[Michel Picard, Liberal, Montarville, QC]

I understand your concern about the quality of services rendered to your communities. However, is the type of criminality we have in rural environments different from what we have in the suburbs and cities? Am I right to understand that your only perspective is to realize that the nature of the criminality seems to be same, that we have the same issues and we have the same problems in the same proportion?

In our case, the main question may be whether the resources available to us assure us that the service is the same as anywhere else. At the end of the day, from your point of view, do we just need more people?

[Georgina Jolibois, NDP, Desnethé—Missinippi—Churchill River, SK]

It's resources.

It is a known fact across Canada that urban centres and suburban areas have effective programs and services to offer to their residents. As we further trickle out to rural areas and the north, a community is lucky if they even have a police officer. A community is lucky if they even have a peace officer program or even a victim services program. The more you trickle out, it is pretty obvious. I suggest that you look further to look for research and details and you will see that in a community in Iqaluit or a community in Yellowknife or in other places, the services and programs and funding for resources and equipment and other various things aren't available.

[Michel Picard, Liberal, Montarville, QC]

Are you suggesting that the cut we have observed in the last government, cutting the resources and budget for the RCMP in rural environments is not the right way to support communities?

[Georgina Jolibois, NDP, Desnethé—Missinippi—Churchill River, SK]

I'm not suggesting anything. I'm painting a picture of what I see between rural, northern and urban centres.

[Michel Picard, Liberal, Montarville, QC]

Yes, but you're suggesting a reduction of resources.

[Georgina Jolibois, NDP, Desnethé—Missinippi—Churchill River, SK]

You are providing various assumptions based on your experiences and where you come from as an MP. That experience is different from where I come from in Saskatchewan and my working experiences with the RCMP and the municipal police forces.

[Michel Picard, Liberal, Montarville, QC]

From your perspective, have you realized the offer of more resources over the years?

[Georgina Jolibois, NDP, Desnethé—Missinippi—Churchill River, SK]

Again, I want to be clear. I'm saying resources for law enforcement, yes, but also resources for communities to offer community-based programs so that the communities and the RCMP and other municipal police forces are engaging in meaningful discussions.

[Michel Picard, Liberal, Montarville, QC]

However, you are on the field. You are in your riding. You are among your people. You've seen what's going on. What have you seen?

[Georgina Jolibois, NDP, Desnethé—Missinippi—Churchill River, SK]

Again, for me to acquire services of an RCMP officer in one setting, I still need to call 911 and it transfers me to Regina.

[Michel Picard, Liberal, Montarville, QC]

That's not my question.

[Georgina Jolibois, NDP, Desnethé—Missinippi—Churchill River, SK]

Again, you're not clearly understanding what life is like in our communities.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

We're going to have to move on to see whether Mr. Picard will have a clear understanding later on.

Go ahead, Mr. Eglinski, please. You have five minutes.

[Jim Eglinski, Yellowhead, CPC]

Thank you.

I'm not sure if it's Mrs. or Ms. Jolibois, but we'll just leave it at that: colleague.

Your points are very well taken here. Having spent 35 years in aboriginal policing, from day one until the end, I feel what you're saying. It takes a special police officer to have good liaison with the community that he's policing, especially an aboriginal community. It takes a person who needs to want to work and interact with that community. As well, it takes outside resources, other than police officers, to make things work.

Someone just talked about resources, and I'm going to throw some figures at you.

If you look at the Yukon, Northwest Territories and Nunavut, their policing numbers are 333 per 100,000; 411 per 100,000; and 353 per 100,000 population. Therefore, there are a lot of police officers per the resources. Then you go to the rest of Canada, including Saskatchewan, and we're all sitting at between about 175 to 200 police officers per 100,000 population. This is the situation that you are talking about, getting people out to the rural areas, the remote rural areas, and the remote areas that require going through to Regina to get a police officer.

It's totally relevant when you look at those numbers, extremely high numbers, 411 to 100,000 in the Northwest Territories, paid for by federal funding. If you look at those numbers that are paid by federal funding, they're very high. Then you look at where they're paid for by the provincial governments, and they're all, in some cases, half of what the federal government is supplying.

If you look at the crime stats over the last year, Northwest Territory, Yukon and Nunavut went up 1% and 2%, whereas if you look at most of the provinces, they went up anywhere from, on average, 5% to 6% with the lower number of police officers per 100,000 population, so it's a very clear picture.

[Georgina Jolibois, NDP, Desnethé—Missinippi—Churchill River, SK]

It's a clear picture to whom?

[Jim Eglinski]

It's a clear picture that more police officers will give you more resources and the crime rate will drop. What you're saying is that you want to see better policing services for the remote communities. My question to you—

[Georgina Jolibois, NDP, Desnethé—Missinippi—Churchill River, SK]

I want to clarify, though. That's not what I'm saying. I'm asking that every community have resources available to them, be it in law enforcement or community-based programs. In rural parts of Canada, they go through the same experiences as a northern community.

[Jim Eglinski]

That's correct.

[Georgina Jolibois, NDP, Desnethé—Missinippi—Churchill River, SK]

In phoning for assistance, for RCMP services, again, they get the same. It's the distance, the location of where the activities are. That is a concern. If there's only one officer, yes, he needs the support, and this is where again the community policing—

[Jim Eglinski]

Let me finish my question, then.

How do you see us doing it better?

[Georgina Jolibois, NDP, Desnethé—Missinippi—Churchill River, SK]

Community policing is really important. That's why, if there is a working relationship between communities, the communities can assist the RCMP to enforce the situation they're dealing with.

[Jim Eglinski]

But if they are—

[Georgina Jolibois, NDP, Desnethé—Missinippi—Churchill River, SK]

That's how I see it.