Public Safety Committee on Oct. 16th, 2018

[Some hon. members]

Oh, oh!

[Georgina Jolibois, NDP, Desnethé—Missinippi—Churchill River, SK]

Okay, let's try this again.

[Pierre Paul-Hus, Conservative, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

Thank you for appearing before us, Ms. Jolibois.

We often talk about the duality of francophones and anglophones, but there is also the duality of rural and urban areas. The committee members from the Liberal Party come mostly from cities. During the deliberations to determine the number of meetings we would have to hold for this study, our Liberal friends decided that three meetings would be enough to fully explore the issue. Do you think that's the case?

[Georgina Jolibois, NDP, Desnethé—Missinippi—Churchill River, SK]

Absolutely not. The way that I understand Canada from coast to coast to coast is that it's a vast country. There is the east to the west, the cities, the urban centres, the rural settings, but the northern parts of the provinces and the Far North, the first nations and Métis and Inuit, require to be consulted because of the way the programs and services are provided at the federal level, such as the RCMP. Their needs have to be considered, and the languages and the challenges they face.

I would support more discussions if there isn't a northern portion of first nations, Métis and Inuit and rural in there. I would encourage that.

Thank you.

[Pierre Paul-Hus, Conservative, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

Colleagues from the United Conservative Party of Alberta have conducted a study on their own to try to understand the issue of rural crime. You are from Saskatchewan. The problem seems to be most prevalent in the central and western provinces, while the situation seems to be less of a concern in Quebec and Ontario.

Do you think that's because of the policing context? For example, Ontario has its own provincial police force. The neighbouring province has the Sûreté du Québec. However, the Royal Canadian Mounted Police has a very broad mandate that covers all of Canada. We tend to rush to blame them, but I think the problem is that the country is vast, as you said.

Do you think Alberta and Saskatchewan should do things differently and have provincial police forces, or do you think that wouldn't change anything?

[Georgina Jolibois, NDP, Desnethé—Missinippi—Churchill River, SK]

I like to be clear. I think this motion that came forward to the House of Commons was because of the outcome of the Colten Boushie family situation. That's my understanding, and the understanding of many Canadians across Canada.

I want to be clear again. I'm not interested in having discussions about the lives of first nations, Métis and Inuit being further at risk. That said, policing across Canada is a concern. All Canadians must and should have equal access to the RCMP, municipal services, across Canada.

It's really important. You may not say it, but I've heard that this motion came about because of this situation, and that's not acceptable.

[Pierre Paul-Hus, Conservative, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

The motion deals with rural crime in general. This problem affects First Nations as much as it does the rest of the population. We want to know why there is more crime in rural areas, especially in Alberta, Saskatchewan and perhaps Manitoba. We are not here to accuse anyone. We simply want to understand the problem and see what measures need to be taken to better protect the public.

[Georgina Jolibois, NDP, Desnethé—Missinippi—Churchill River, SK]

I believe, again, that I'm here to discuss this very important issue that in terms of policing and the policing service, every citizen must have equal access to the RCMP and programs that are available.

[Pierre Paul-Hus, Conservative, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Go ahead, Mr. Motz.

[Glen Motz, Conservative, Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB]

Ms. Jolibois, thank you for being here.

Just so you know, the Alberta MPs from the rural areas of my province began this study about 18 months ago, and it was related to the huge increase we've seen in rural crime throughout our province. It was not specific to anything more than urban centre criminals branching out and preying on those in the country, and that's where it started for us.

I met with my officials from the Blood reserve. They speak about the first nations policing program. I was alarmed to hear that it was a 30-year-old program, or older, that hasn't changed in any way. It should be considered as an emergency service, a required service, in a lot of the first nations communities.

I would be interested to know your views on first nations policing. I know from my discussions with law enforcement officials from across the country that they suggest the RCMP may need to consider reworking how they do some of their work. I know that many first nations rely on the RCMP to augment the needs they have on reserve.

I would like to know from you whether first nations policing has the tools to succeed. What do we need to do to ensure that we can better support first nations policing?

[Georgina Jolibois, NDP, Desnethé—Missinippi—Churchill River, SK]

Again, I want to emphasize this. From coast to coast to coast, in all parts of Canada, for a citizen in Iqaluit or in Canwood or in Regina, Saskatchewan, or in northern B.C., for us as Canadian citizens, the RCMP and municipal services exist for our community and public safety. When we need assistance, we call law enforcement to help us. That's the approach that I've engaged in discussions on and worked on through my experience.

My discussions with the RCMP and elders and first nations and communities are about community policing and working together. How can we address this together, and not as one group separate from another? I want to clarify that the discussions around increased funding, from the RCMP to municipal services to first nations and other groups, is always a must. Canada must support that.

[Glen Motz, Conservative, Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB]

I have one quick question. From your experience in your riding, what kinds of rural crimes are you experiencing in your riding as they increase? Is it property crime or crimes against people? What are you seeing as an increase in the rural crime going on in your community?

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Sorry. Mr. Motz has gone over his time.

I'd like to be relaxed on this. Could you answer that question in 10 seconds, or do you want to save it for another time?

[Georgina Jolibois, NDP, Desnethé—Missinippi—Churchill River, SK]

We'll get to the next question, because it—

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Okay.

Ms. Moore, you have the floor for seven minutes.

[Christine Moore, NDP, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

You come from northern Saskatchewan and I come from northern Quebec. Although our communities are different, they are both northern. Every time we talk, I realize the extent to which we are experiencing similar problems and situations. Although Canada is a vast country, I think we share many of the same concerns.

One of the issues specific to rural areas is the fact that police officers live in the community. Everyone knows them, knows who they are, knows their children and knows where they live. As a result, when incidents involving police officers disturb public opinion, it becomes extremely difficult to deal with. For example, in my area, in La Sarre, a year ago, the police had to go after someone in a hit and run. He was in crisis and threatened the police with a knife. They shot him and he unfortunately died. This event prompted a shock wave in the community.

How can we develop programs that inspire the trust of communities in their police forces and foster co-operation with the provincial police, the RCMP or indigenous police forces? What can we do to ensure that communities co-operate effectively with police forces?

[Georgina Jolibois, NDP, Desnethé—Missinippi—Churchill River, SK]

In my experiences over the years of working with the Saskatoon Police Service as well as with the aboriginal advisory committee with the RCMP, and in my experiences in working with the Saskatchewan RCMP and having met with Commissioner Brenda Lucki and having similar discussions with her, I have heard about various incidents involving the relationship between the RCMP and municipal services and communities. That's why I advocate and support community policing.

When I say “community policing”, I'm meaning that the RCMP is invested in the communities and that the Saskatoon Police Service or other municipalities' services are invested in the communities, that the elders and the leadership in the communities are invested in the communities. The best way to overcome hardships or difficult situations in dealing with circumstances such as you laid out is using the circle, coming together and building the community, talking to each other and going through the process.

My friends over the years, and the police officers with whom I formed relationships—they're indigenous people and non-indigenous people—say the same thing when they enter our communities and work with our communities. The best way for us to solve these issues together is.... Yes, we need the resources and the support, but we must still be engaged in discussions together to tackle the criminal activity that is going on.

[Christine Moore, NDP, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

Basically, you can't run a police station in a rural area without working with all the local players who are not part of the police world. There must be a lot of communication between all the local players, compared to elsewhere, where it may not be as important.

[Georgina Jolibois, NDP, Desnethé—Missinippi—Churchill River, SK]

From my experience working with the senior leadership over the years and meeting with Commissioner Brenda Lucki and the north district within the RCMP, the Depot academy, and various senior leaders, I would say that the local RCMP officers who are serving our communities require our support as well. They require the support of the community members to help them solve crime.

If there's no working relationship, the criminal activity any community may have experienced cannot be resolved. It's important that the RCMP feel they can trust the community and that the community can also trust the RCMP or municipal service—it goes both ways—in order to solve crimes together.

[Christine Moore, NDP, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

Of all the indigenous policing models that you've seen in the past, were there any that were particularly effective?

[Georgina Jolibois, NDP, Desnethé—Missinippi—Churchill River, SK]

In my experience in working with the Saskatoon Police Service as well as the RCMP, I was sitting on the committee when two police officers were shot, one indigenous and one non-indigenous. When I was sitting on the committee, so was one of the fathers of the killed RCMP officers. The elder has passed away since then, but he and other indigenous police officers within the force, and non-indigenous officers, have guided the process to work through these difficult circumstances.

In my experiences across Canada in talking to indigenous people and communities, working together is crucial and resources are crucial.

[Christine Moore, NDP, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

I have one last question.

In the communities in the region where I come from, they are currently trying to recruit more indigenous police officers, but it is difficult. Not many young people think about a career in policing.

I would like to know whether you have any solutions or tips to encourage more indigenous people to join the police force, to consider a career in policing.

[Georgina Jolibois, NDP, Desnethé—Missinippi—Churchill River, SK]

In the models I'm familiar with, the RCMP and the Saskatoon Police Service have aboriginal advisory committees working with the leadership of those police forces and tackling the very tough issues.

Why are there not indigenous people joining the forces? First of all, the RCMP is struggling in attracting indigenous people to join the police force, as are the municipal police forces. The application system is lengthy and the process is detailed. The applicant requires assistance in going through the process.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Thank you, Ms. Moore.

Thank you, Ms. Jolibois.

Mr. Picard, you have seven minutes, please.