Evidence of meeting #131 for Public Safety and National Security in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was rcmp.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal John McKay
Let's call the meeting back to order. I think we have our folks by video conference: Edouard and Jessica Maurice.
I propose to first hear from Alicia Bedford, from Thompson, Manitoba, and Geraldine Dixon.
You can choose between yourselves as to who goes first, but one of you has 10 minutes, and then the other has 10 minutes.
With that, who's going first?
Alicia Bedford As an Individual
We're together, so we're both speaking on the same issue.
Liberal
Liberal
The Chair Liberal John McKay
Okay. That's good. That leaves more time for members to ask questions.
The clock is running. Thank you.
As an Individual
Thank you for having us. I think it is very important that we are speaking out on this issue, about an incident that happened to me a couple of months ago, what has come from that, and the feedback that we've received from speaking out on this incident in our community. I will just start by reading about the incident that happened.
On August 10, 2018, while I was alone at home with my two young daughters, I was awoken at approximately 2:00 a.m. by my oldest daughter's yelling that someone was in our backyard and was trying to break into our house.
We had been doing some renovations on our backyard, so our deck was leading up to the doors in my bedroom. As I looked, I could see the individual trying to come through the screen door into my bedroom.
With force, I was able to push him out and close the door, but I could hear him and what sounded like numerous other people in the vicinity of my house screaming and yelling.
Immediately after closing the door and locking it again, I grabbed my cellphone and dialed the RCMP, which in Thompson here is not simply 911. We have to dial 204-677-6911. Can you imagine what that's like, having someone break into your house and having to dial 10 numbers? It's quite an ordeal.
The first time I dialed the number, I immediately got a recording which said that all operators were currently busy. Being frightened, I hung up and dialed the number again, and again I got the same message that all operators were currently busy.
Hearing these people in my backyard, hearing them trying to get into my house and not being able to reach anybody for help, I called our local fire department. I immediately got through to them and explained what was happening. They put me through to the RCMP once again while they were on the line with me. They stayed on the line with me while we again got this message that all operators were busy.
We continued to hold. That time span felt like a lifetime, but in reality it was probably about five to seven minutes until I was finally able to speak to somebody, explain my situation, and try to get some help for me and my kids.
Once I was able to speak to somebody and give my information, it took literally less than three minutes to have the RCMP dispatched to my house. Unfortunately, by this time everybody was gone. They weren't able to apprehend anybody. However, I imagine that if I had gotten through to somebody immediately and not had to have been on hold for that amount of time, they probably would have been able to get there a lot faster.
I think it's scary. I was raised in this community. I've raised my kids to memorize this 10-digit number, which is harder than three digits, obviously, but is still just as important. I've raised my kids to dial this number when they need help or assistance, and they rely on that. We're raised that way.
Unfortunately, my children are still shaken up about these events that happened. There are questions in their minds now. If they need help, can they actually receive the help? Are they going to be put on hold? Being so young, if they're attacked and they're trying to get help, how long are they going to be on hold before they actually get some help?
I think the question is this: Why does Thompson not have a local dispatch? With the crime rate that Thompson has.... We'll be mentioning that Maclean's magazine has rated us as the second most dangerous Canadian city to live in. We don't have a local dispatch. We don't have a local 911.
I think it's unacceptable that we have to be on hold. Our lives don't seem to matter as much as that of somebody else who has 911, who maybe will get through right away. I just think that's unacceptable.
I'll pass it over to Geri.
Geraldine Dixon As an Individual
Hi. I'm Geraldine Dixon. Actually, I am Alicia's mother.
After dealing with the incident that occurred to my daughter and her family, the following day I went down to our local RCMP detachment, where I spoke to an officer, and then after leaving there I spoke to our acting mayor, Colleen Smook. Mrs. Smook recommended that we send a letter of our concerns to the Minister of Justice, as well as to mayor and council. The letters were sent August 13 and August 15, 2018, respectively.
In a follow-up to the letters sent, my daughter and I spoke to the mayor and council at the monthly city council meeting, where Mayor Fenske told us that the decision to get rid of the Thompson local 911 call centre was made by the Manitoba government, not the city, and that northern Manitoba does not have the infrastructure to support a 911 call centre. Mayor Fenske told us that they had been lobbying the government to fix this problem, but “that's just how it is in the north”.
We also sent an email regarding our concerns to Cliff Cullen, Minister of Justice, and we copied Brian Pallister, Kelly Bindle and Niki Ashton. We received a reply to our email from Karen Lambert, director of contract policing, recommending to stay on the line when calling 204-677-6911.
I met with Kelly Bindle, Thompson's MLA, on September 19, 2018, after numerous attempts to meet with him, and was told that he would send off another letter to Cliff Cullen as the last reply we received from him was unsatisfactory.
We were told Mr. Bindle would be in contact with us and, to date, one day shy of one month, we had not heard anything. I want to do a follow-up to this because after we sent this letter on to your committee, Mr. Bindle did get back to us and we forwarded his email on to you. But please note that in Mr. Bindle's email he contradicts Mayor Fenske, saying that infrastructure is and always has been in place and at no time has Mr. Bindle seen any lobbying done to change the existing situation.
For awareness purposes, my daughter and I have started a petition, which we will present to the new mayor and council, showing the concerns and the support from the community for a local 911 call centre. Thompson is known as the hub of the north, and Maclean's magazine has ranked us number two on the most dangerous place to live in Canada list. People do not feel safe, and we need change.
If I might add to this, we received another email from Kelly Bindle regarding our RCMP 911 service. There is one paragraph I would love to read, as it highlights why we are here today speaking to you. It says:
The RCMP has provided the following information regarding this specific incident: On August 11, 2018, between 1:30 and 2:30 am, the RCMP received 50 emergency calls—
I'm sorry?
As an Individual
Okay. I'm almost done.
—of which 29 were answered. There were also 15 calls that required call backs as they were abandoned.... The average wait time in the queue during this period was 2 minutes 42 seconds with the maximum wait time during this period being 11 minutes and 21 seconds. RCMP have indicated that this was a higher than normal call volume. The RCMP have identified the call that Ms Bedford made to Thompson Fire and noted that this call waited in the queue for 4 minutes and 29 seconds before being answered.
In finishing, please remember that every second counts when you're dealing with an emergency situation.
Thank you.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal John McKay
Thank you, Ms. Bedford and Ms. Dixon.
The committee clerk has received the letter that you forwarded, the correspondence from Kelly Bindle. It's in translation and it will be distributed to members shortly, probably on Monday. Thank you.
With that, I will call on Edouard and Jessica Maurice.
Edouard Maurice As an Individual
My name is Eddie Maurice and this is my wife Jessica. Thank you for inviting us here to share our story and speak on an issue that has greatly affected us.
We were invited here to speak because when two criminals came onto my rural property in February, I was the one arrested by the RCMP. My story received national attention after charges were laid against me for protecting myself, my young daughter and my property.
I was home alone with my 12-month-old daughter, who was sleeping in her bedroom downstairs, when I was awoken from my sleep at about 5:00 a.m. by criminals outside my rural home. Instantly, I was terrified, because when you live in the country as we do, your neighbours cannot hear you scream. It was pitch black outside and pitch black in the house, and I didn't know how many criminals there were, where they were or what they wanted.
I took my .22 rifle and went to the front door to confront and scare off the two criminals who were just 10 feet away. I yelled at them to leave and got no response from them, so I fired warning shots into the ground to scare them off. The two criminals ran back up our laneway to a van waiting on the road, and I immediately called 911 to report what had happened in the hope that the RCMP would catch them. I just wanted to protect my daughter, who was sleeping downstairs.
We live on the edge of our town of almost 30,000 people, just a seven-minute drive from our RCMP station. I waited anxiously for the police to arrive, fearful of who might still be out in the dark or that people might come back. Two hours later, three RCMP cruisers drove in and officers came to my door with their assault rifles drawn to arrest me. They were telling me that I, the person who called 911 on the real criminals, was under arrest. It turned out that one of the criminals had been injured by a ricocheting bullet and the police were responding to his, the criminal's, 911 call. I informed the officers that my daughter was still sleeping in her crib and the RCMP officer arresting me expected me to leave her in her care, treating me as the criminal rather than the victim.
At the time of my arrest, I was advised that I was being arrested for the criminal charge of careless use of a firearm. After I was in custody for 24 hours, the RCMP laid three charges against me: careless use of a firearm, pointing a firearm, and, the most serious charge, aggravated assault. Now, this is an important part of the story, because this is where the RCMP made a mistake that was life-changing for our family. They laid the charges at about 7:00 a.m. Sunday and did not even begin a physical investigation of the property or forensics until 9:00 a.m. Sunday. This means that the RCMP made a decision to lay three serious charges against me based solely on my 911 call, a statement that they coerced me into giving without my lawyer present, and a statement from the injured criminal. This criminal had admitted to doing drugs earlier in the night, was found with methamphetamine on him, and had a criminal history. Our two statements were very different. The police had no physical evidence or any admission from me that I intended to injure this person.
The RCMP had a choice at the time. They could have and should have released me because I was a law-abiding, taxpaying citizen with no criminal record. They could have investigated further and laid charges later if the evidence supported it. Instead, they chose to lay the charges without sufficient basis and hoped that the evidence they later found would support them in those charges. I was presumed guilty first, rather than innocent, which is not how our justice system was designed.
The evidence didn't support the RCMP's charges, and the preliminary ballistics report confirmed my statement. The Crown withdrew the charges after four months of extreme stress, anxiety and fear for our family. This whole event was traumatic for me. Confronting these criminals outside my home gave me nightmares that were long-lasting. They were dressed all in black, and in the dark you couldn't tell if they had weapons. Then to be arrested and charged like a criminal after calling 911 expecting help, when I didn't do anything wrong and did what any other rural person would do in the same situation, was devastating. I didn't ask for these criminals to come onto my property and force me to make a decision. I don't want anyone else to have to go through this same experience.
Jessica Maurice As an Individual
We became a focal point for people in rural communities across both Alberta and Canada as many people identified with our situation and felt that they would have done the same thing in the same situation. At one local town hall meeting on rural crime, over 300 people gave us an unexpected standing ovation as a show of support for Eddie's actions and our ongoing very public legal battle. People rallied outside the courthouse at all six of Eddie's court appearances, with over 200 people at one, because they felt that there was a huge injustice being done to him. We are here to speak not only about our experience but also on behalf of all of those who supported and spoke to us in the eight months since Eddie's arrest.
What many urban people don't realize is that for us it's not just stuff we lose when crimes like this happen, but we also lose that feeling of safety and security that we all expect in our own homes. There is a feeling of being violated, a fear that the criminals might return to do more harm. There is an ongoing anxiety that remains long after the stuff is gone.
The crime rates in our area have more than tripled in the last five years and the rural community is not only frustrated, they're scared. Criminals aren't afraid to use violence and guns, because they have nothing to lose. They know that the RCMP response times in rural areas are atrocious and they use that to their advantage to commit more crimes. Now they're only becoming bolder with crimes happening in broad daylight and even while people are at home.
People in rural communities, who are a large part of this great nation, are starting to become afraid of the RCMP, too, and our situation is a good example of why. The RCMP have made it clear that if citizens step in to stop a crime in progress and protect themselves or their property, as my husband did, they will be the ones on trial facing jail time. The RCMP are losing the trust of the people that they are supposed to protect.
At the town halls we've been attending, people keep asking the RCMP what they're supposed to do when a criminal comes onto their property. The answer is always to go back in the house, find a safe room, and call 911. But that answer isn't cutting it anymore. The police cannot be there fast enough, as it is not physically possible in the moment when a crime is happening, and this is evidenced by the alarming increase in rural crime.
The RCMP are also telling us to put up gates across our driveways, to get security and camera systems, and to make our properties less attractive to criminals. Why is the onus being put on the property owners to protect themselves and make their properties less attractive to the criminals? This changes the feel of the community in rural areas, where we choose to live because of the privacy, peacefulness, and openness of the communities and neighbours. This whole ideology is thrown away when you have to turn your property into a fortress with gates and security cameras.
We're tired of being told to stand down and being okay with being the victims. Canadians are strong and courageous people and we expect to live freely and safely, and that's not happening. Hiring more police alone is not going to solve the issue of rural crime. We have to take it a step further. If the government is not able to protect us, we need to be able to protect ourselves.
Our recommendation is that this committee and the Government of Canada implement stronger self-defence and property defence laws so that the people can protect themselves without fear of prosecution. We urge you to consider significant changes to the laws to allow people to be their own first line of defence in crimes, just as we are in fire and health emergencies.
While there seems to be a fear of guns in Canadian urban areas, this is not the case in rural Canada. We are raised and taught from a young age about guns, gun safety and to be respectful with firearms. They are a necessary part of the rural lifestyle, to hunt for food and scare off or kill predators to keep our livestock safe. Firearms aren't the problem in Canada. Our justice system is the problem, and our case is not an isolated incident.
Gerald Stanley and Peter Khill are other victims that have gone through similar situations. Faith in our justice system in rural areas is quickly dying. If you don't do something to strengthen these laws for rural communities soon, more people will stop calling the police. This is already happening. Rural citizens are starting to take justice and protection into their own hands without police involvement. They aren't reporting it and you can be sure that the criminals aren't reporting it either.
Until the criminals start to see that there are consequences to committing these crimes in rural areas, they're going to keep coming and victimizing us. The fastest, cheapest way to change rural crime is not through policing or rehabilitation programs but through allowing us to defend and protect ourselves and our property. Rural Canadians are not willing to sit back and it's up to this committee to represent their wishes. We want to be able to protect ourselves and our property, and it's up to you to make sure that we can.
Thank you.
Liberal
Liberal
Julie Dabrusin Liberal Toronto—Danforth, ON
Thank you. I'm going to start with the Maurices.
Thank you for being here. I was looking at the order of reference for this study, and it was to look at current rural crime rates, existing RCMP and other police resources, current partnerships and possible recommendations. I'm going to focus on that.
Looking at the existing police resources, one of the things I've been looking at is “Police Resources in Canada, 2017”, an article put out by Statistics Canada. We've mentioned this a few times. Alberta actually falls below the line for the number of police by population, so that in fact it has a fewer police than the average across the country. I don't know if you were aware of that or if you had any comments about the number of police available in Alberta to respond to crimes, urban or rural.
As an Individual
I don't think we have very many comments on the policing numbers. What we are trying to get across to you is what people are communicating to us in the different types of stories, and what the reality is for landowners.
Liberal
Julie Dabrusin Liberal Toronto—Danforth, ON
I'm just saying, though, that one of the realities is that there are fewer police available in Alberta.
As an Individual
Yes. They've recently, I think in March or April, dedicated more funding to police in Alberta.
Liberal
Julie Dabrusin Liberal Toronto—Danforth, ON
I'm not sure that has actually increased the numbers. I'd have to look into that.
We have talked about the fact that there was $10 million given by the provincial government in Alberta. I think it was $8 million towards policing and $2 million towards the justice system, if I have that right. They've changed a bit of how they do things locally, based on that.
If you look at Ontario and Quebec, there are provincial police, the OPP and Sûreté du Québec.
Is that something you think would be helpful in Alberta, if the province had its own police service in addition to the existing services you have, rather than relying solely on the RCMP?
As an Individual
Yes.
We actually have the Alberta sheriffs. We've heard some people recommend that they get more power. Right now, they're not allowed to help the police. They have certain jurisdictional issues, I believe, so they could improve the jurisdiction of the sheriffs to allow them to aid the police. Sometimes what will happen is that the sheriffs will be closer to wherever the incident is, but because of their jurisdiction, they cannot get to the crime that's in progress. They have to wait for the RCMP who are further away.
I think that if there were some improvements made to that, it would be a big help.
Liberal
Julie Dabrusin Liberal Toronto—Danforth, ON
That's one thing we could look at, the availability of provincial police forces.
As an Individual
The reality is that the police still can't get there in the 15 seconds when people are breaking into your home, like in this example. It sounds like they may be closer in a town in Manitoba.
When you're half an hour out of town, the police are still not going to get there, regardless of whether it's a provincial or a federal police service.
Liberal
Julie Dabrusin Liberal Toronto—Danforth, ON
A lot of what we're hearing about right now is from Alberta. I understand that we have you two as well, and I'm sorry; I'm not ignoring you on the video conference from Manitoba.
We've heard from a lot of people in Alberta, and there is this differential in the amount of police services available, so that is one thing we're looking at as part of this equation.
With regard to solutions, I'm really interested in this. Your suggested solution, then—and I don't want to put words in your mouth, so I want to try to understand this—is better self-defence, meaning that you, and presumably because we create laws for the entire country, I, could use a gun to defend our respective properties.
How do you frame that so I can understand it?
As an Individual
This actually affects urban people, so I'm glad you brought this up. A weapon can be anything. It doesn't have to be a gun. It could be a baseball bat. It could be a frying pan that you hit somebody over the head with.
It has happened in urban areas, but probably isn't reported as much. If you use too much force with any kind of weapon, whether it's a gun or not, you could still be charged with assault, even in an urban area, when it's self-defence. I think that it affects everybody in Canada, not just in rural areas, in strengthening these laws.
If you had an intruder in your home, and you—
Liberal
Julie Dabrusin Liberal Toronto—Danforth, ON
I guess I'm trying to figure out the changes that you're trying to suggest, because we do have self-defence as a defence. There is, within our criminal court system, a self-defence aspect to it. There's a proportionality piece to it, but there is self-defence already built into our system.
I'm trying to figure out what change you're trying to ask us for to do that.
