Evidence of meeting #132 for Public Safety and National Security in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was property.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Wendy Cukier  President, Coalition for Gun Control
Fredrick Priestley-Wright  As an Individual
Jim Eglinski  Yellowhead, CPC
Ruby Sahota  Brampton North, Lib.
Dale Larsen  Assistant Deputy Minister, Policing and Community Safety Services, Ministry of Corrections and Policing, Government of Saskatchewan
Alan Drummond  Co-Chair, Public Affairs Committee, Canadian Association of Emergency Physicians
Solomon Friedman  Criminal Defence Lawyer, As an Individual

3:30 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal John McKay

Ladies and gentlemen, I see it's 3:30 p.m.

We have two witnesses for the first hour: Wendy Cukier, president of Coalition for Gun Control, who is a familiar witness before this committee, and Fred Priestley-Wright, who is coming in from Edmonton via video conference.

Welcome to you both.

For this meeting, my intention is to go through the first hour in a normal fashion, then suspend and go to committee business for about five minutes—I'm thinking it should be in camera—and then hear the second hour of testimony. I'm assuming that's an agreeable way to order our affairs here.

With that, Ms. Cukier, welcome once again to the committee. You have 10 minutes, please.

3:30 p.m.

Professor Wendy Cukier President, Coalition for Gun Control

Thanks very much for including me.

I apologize for not submitting a written brief, but time did not allow us to pull it together and get it translated, so we're happy to provide a written backup to arguments that I'm going to be presenting today.

I want to quickly touch on the issues of firearm gun death and injury in rural communities, why the Coalition for Gun Control thinks this is something that needs to be addressed, and touch on some of the data, some of the solutions.

As many of you around the committee table have heard, there is a lot of talk about problems of urban violence, and a lot of focus on issues related to gangs in the cities.

The irony, of course, as you have probably heard from previous witnesses, is that rates per 100,000 of violent crimes, particularly involving firearms, are actually higher in rural communities. In fact, if you look at victims of police-reported firearm-related violent crime by province and territory, broken down by urban and rural areas, you see that in spite of all the attention that's focused on places like Toronto, Yukon, Northwest Territories, Nunavut and so on, they are much higher than the Canadian average. Manitoba, Saskatchewan and Alberta have twice the rates of firearm-related violent crime as Ontario does.

We also know from reports that have come recently from StatsCan that while approximately 17% of Canadians are in rural communities and policed by police there, and while about 18% of property crime, i.e., theft of automobiles and so on, occurs in rural communities, it's roughly proportionate to the population and not significantly higher than in urban centres.

We see 25% of violent crime occurring in those very communities. For those of you who have looked at issues like domestic violence, you will know that rural communities have much higher rates per 100,000 of domestic violence incidents, including firearms in particular, than large cities. If you look at specific phenomena, like the murders of police officers, very few in fact are killed, particularly with guns, in large urban centres. The vast majority are killed in the line of duty in smaller communities, again, in part because of the prevalence of firearms.

The same thing is true if we look at suicide. Why would we talk about suicide in a discussion focused on rural crime? We would talk about suicide in this context, because if you take a public health perspective on violence, violence against the self is considered a form of violence. If you look at the factors that influence suicide rates, if you look at the root causes and so on, the risk of suicide and the risk of homicide, particularly among young men, are very similar.

The same kinds of factors, such as inequality, exclusion, mental health issues, substance abuse and critical events in the life cycle, can precipitate suicide or homicide. Many of you are familiar with suicide by cop and other phenomena that show this to be the case, or domestic violence incidents, which, when firearms are involved, end in suicide half the time. The links between suicide and homicide are particularly interwoven when we look at rural communities.

That's why when we think about how to prevent violence framed in a public health model, we look first at the root causes. We look at what the precipitating factors are that lead people to engage in criminal or violent acts. We know that gender is a factor. We know, as I said, inequality, lack of opportunity, mental health issues, substance abuse, addictions and so on are certainly things that have to be addressed at a community level.

We also know, from both public health and criminology literature, that access to means plays a big role. That can mean access to the keys of an automobile, for instance. If people do not lock their cars, they're more likely to be stolen than if they had locked their cars or there are anti-theft devices in place or there are video surveillance tools.

It also means that access to firearms increases the lethality of violent encounters. Guns don't cause violence or crime, but they make it more likely that it will end with dead people.

Finally, the third dimension we look at is the response after the fact, which can affect the severity of the consequences. We know that in rural communities, access to emergency response services, whether it's firefighters, police or ambulances, is reduced and the time to respond is longer.

We know that in rural communities there is less access to things like shelters and other kinds of supports that have been shown to reduce the likelihood, for example, that women will be killed.

We know that mental health supports are much less readily available in rural communities. There are huge lineups, even in large centres, but it gets worse and worse the further and more removed you are. Support for victims, to prevent revictimization, is also lessened.

It's important to look at all of those issues when we are trying to come up with a solution.

The final point, which is a bit self-interested but I think needs to be said, is that we also know that increasingly a large proportion of firearms recovered in crime are sourced from domestic firearms owners. This is not just true in Toronto, or from the recent study that was conducted in British Columbia, but also in smaller communities. We've seen the reports from police. The availability of firearms in smaller communities cannot only increase lethal violence in those communities, particularly when appropriate controls are not in place, but it can also fuel violence in other places.

I am not sure if MP Dabrusin is there or not, but certainly when it came to the Danforth shooting, it appears that the gun was stolen from somewhere in Saskatchewan.

From our perspective, in the context of a crime prevention strategy, whether we're looking at urban or rural communities, we need to consider reducing access to firearms for dangerous people. Certainly we have many cases of small communities where this has been reinforced. For example, we have Judge Marlene Graham, who ruled that in the investigation associated with the death of Corey Lewis in Okotoks, a big problem was the lack of screening around firearms. We have lots of evidence to show that controls on firearms reduce lethality.

We know that firearms have a gender dimension. A study that was done in New Brunswick, for example, showed that of the one-quarter of women living with firearms in that community, 66% said that knowing firearms were present made them more fearful for their safety and well-being. They said it affected their decision on whether to tell others or to seek help for abuse that they received. We have to recognize that there is a need in rural communities, as in urban centres, to break the code of silence around domestic violence.

I want to end by saying that we know firearms serve legitimate purposes, particularly in rural communities. We have to respect hunting, pest controls, and indigenous rights, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't have rigorous controls. It certainly doesn't mean that we shouldn't be considering a ban on handguns and assault weapons, which don't serve a useful purpose in rural communities anymore than in urban communities.

We really have to fight the highly gendered notion that having more guns makes us safer, because, in fact, having more guns in people's homes often makes them more at risk.

I want to quote Barbara Frey, the UN special rapporteur on human rights, who said:

Male-dominated societies often justify arms possession through the alleged need to protect vulnerable women, though women actually face greater danger of violence when their families and communities are armed.

Thank you very much.

3:40 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal John McKay

Thank you very much. We'll have to leave it there.

Mr. Priestley-Wright, you have 10 minutes, please.

3:40 p.m.

Fredrick Priestley-Wright As an Individual

Thank you very much. Good afternoon to everybody.

My name is Fred Priestley-Wright. I'm 83 years old. I live in rural west central Alberta. I am a professional. I am an aeronautical engineer by profession. I worked as an aerodynamicist on the Avro Arrow and then under contract to the U.S. Air Force doing aerodynamic analysis of some of their aircraft. That contract was up in three years and I returned to Alberta and worked in the oil and gas industry, and then went into ranching where I presently live.

My incident occurred on November 4. I'll go through it quickly. I had finished lunch. It was a -20°C day, with some snow. I worked in the office all morning. I was going to my small sawmill after lunch to saw logs, to make lumber. I went out to my truck, which is 162 feet from my house. I started my truck. It was -20°C. I left it running. Yes, the keys were in it. Yes, that is theoretically a no-no. In reality, we all do it, for very good reasons. I had forgotten my cellphone, so I went back to the house, 162 feet. The cellphone was on the shelf just inside the door. I picked it up and went back.

There was a strange white truck in my yard. I hadn't seen it before. My truck was leaving the driveway, leaving the premises. I looked at the white truck. It wasn't a local truck; nobody was playing games. I took my cellphone out and started to phone 911, and my truck reappeared across the lawn and almost ran me down, and stopped beside the white truck. The passenger got out and was retrieving something that they had left from the white truck, which turned out to be stolen. I went to the driver's side and I opened the door and I said, “What is going on?” The driver put it in gear, backed up—the door was open and knocked me down—and then closed and locked the door. So I went to the other side, to the passenger side where the individual was removing whatever it was from the white truck, the stolen truck. I asked him the same question, “What is doing on?” He grabbed me, and the other fellow got me from behind, and they put me down. When they were putting me down, they said, “We're scared. The RCMP are after us, and the mafia is after us.” Right away, I thought, "I'm facing a drug case here."

They put me down on the ground. The driver got back in the truck. My guard dog chased him back to the truck. The other one cut my throat, kicked my head continually—I would suggest, if I can guess properly, about six times. The first kick was to my right eye, damaging it severely. There were several kicks to my jaw, which did significant damage to my jaw. Another one or two were to my neck, and I have a neck problem now. Then finally he kicked me in the chest, causing me excruciating pain. All the time he was doing this, he was waving a knife in front of me.

I guess I more or less passed out from the extreme pain from the kick to the chest, and I just barely remember him nudging me with his foot like a hunter would do with a deer to see if it was dead or not. Then he proceeded to get into the truck. He was taking his time about it, and my wife had come out because she had heard a commotion, and from the corner of the garage said, “What is going on?” Then they both hurried up and left the area.

She phoned 911, and the RCMP appeared and called an ambulance and whatnot. What has happened to me? I'm just going to read some of my impact statements I made to the court.

In terms of the physical trauma, the knife slash to the neck was a clean cut and bled heavily. There is right-eye damage. Sight is severely distorted. I can't read a book without frustration due to horizontal double-vision. I have to read with one eye closed now, which is hard for an 83-year-old who has used both eyes for most of his life. I have serious jaw fractures and no feeling in my lower lip and right side of my face due to significant nerve damage. I can't chew properly; food falls out of my mouth when I eat because of the numbness of my lip and face. During the healing process, my jaws were wired shut for four weeks. I required considerable dental work. Teeth had to be removed and so on. The pain in my neck will never go away.

I guess I was close to dying. This happened on November 4. On October 31, I had finished 18 or 20 years as a municipal councillor in the fourth-largest rural municipality in Alberta. I was euphoric. I had no more responsibilities. I had time to work on my bucket list, so to speak. On November 4, this accident or intrusion, or whatever you want to call it, happened. That took care of my bucket list, so to speak.

At this point in time, as of today, the knife slash has healed satisfactorily, but my right eye is permanently damaged. I have to close my right eye in order to read. I'm an avid reader, but I can't do that anymore. The jaw fractures have healed more or less okay. The right side of my face is partially distorted and it is obvious, especially to me every time I look in the mirror. It required four titanium plates to reconstruct my jaw: one on each side, one down here.... I had two jaw fractures.

The nerve damage to the right side of my face has not repaired. I'm stuck with this for the rest of my life, and it results in terrible difficulties eating. I'm very reluctant to eat in public because the food drools down my face and I can't feel it. I can't chew properly, so we don't go out for dinner anymore.

The left—

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal John McKay

You have just two minutes.

3:45 p.m.

As an Individual

Fredrick Priestley-Wright

Fine and dandy.

My problem right now is the mental trauma. I'm having a terrible time with PTSD. Since that time, I've only been able to have four sessions with the specialist. I'm 83 years old and at a loss to rationalize the vindictiveness of this assault. I'm embarrassed to admit that my problems resulting from this incident are so overwhelming that there are times when I wish the assailants would have killed me. I still feel that way.

Thank you, sir.

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal John McKay

Thank you, Mr. Priestley-Wright, for sharing that story. I can't imagine that any of us would not moved by it.

I'm going to go to the rounds of questions.

The first questioner is Mr. Picard, please, for seven minutes.

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

Michel Picard Liberal Montarville, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Ms. Cukier, one of the issues that is problematic in our study is the difficulty in understanding the nature of what is being called rural crime. We have heard comments from the RCMP, individuals and organizations. One of the problems faced in rural areas is the response time, meaning the time it takes for the RCMP to arrive at the scene of an incident. This response time is relatively long. Let's just say it is more often long than short. Questions arise about human resources and the appropriate equipment for police officers. That being said, we understand that this part of police intervention takes place after the crime has been committed.

You mentioned that the crime rate was twice as high in the three Prairie provinces. Yet, the resources in this area are, on average, the same as in the rest of Canada. There may be fewer in Alberta, but things have changed. From the outset, we have therefore been wondering why the crime rate is higher in these regions.

3:50 p.m.

Prof. Wendy Cukier

I think you will know from the research that it's complex. You have to look at the root causes first of all, what leads people to criminal behaviour. We heard from Mr. Priestley-Wright, for example, that the people who stole his vehicle appear to have been involved with drugs. They appear to have been afraid. I don't know what their circumstances were, if they were caught or not. But if you look at some of the violence involving youth in rural communities, it's not that different from urban communities. A lot of research explains the causes of domestic violence.

I've done some work looking at rural versus urban economic growth, and from my perspective a lot of our resources go into urban centres. It's also easier sometimes to provide services in densely populated areas so there are some structural challenges in providing the same level of service, whether we're talking about education, health or policing in communities where people are more spread out. That being said, investing in primary prevention is definitely without question the best place to invest.

You mentioned policing by the RCMP. I think police officers in rural communities whether it's the Sûreté du Québec, the Ontario Provincial Police or the RCMP, work under much more challenging circumstances in some respects than those policing in large urban centres that typically have fewer individual police officers patrolling. Often in smaller communities the police are spread much more thinly. The fact that so many police officers killed in this country are killed serving Canada in smaller communities I think is a strong testament to the fact that they themselves are also victimized in violent incidents.

The third thing I think is important, and again Mr. Priestley-Wright mentioned this, is the kinds of supports available in rural communities to victims of violence. I believe he said he wasn't sure life was worth living, that he sometimes regretted having survived the violent confrontation. That's a tragic but truthful example of what often happens to victims of violence who don't receive support or justice.

3:50 p.m.

Liberal

Michel Picard Liberal Montarville, QC

I don't have much time left. If I may, I'll ask Mr. Priestley-Wright a question.

Mr. Priestley-Wright, you said in your presentation that you were a city councillor for some time. Given your experience, the environment in which you live and the concerns of the municipality you advised, could you tell me whether the discussions on crime were part of your city council's debates and, if so, under what terms?

3:55 p.m.

As an Individual

Fredrick Priestley-Wright

Yes, sir, very definitely. We had presentations from the local detachment of the RCMP almost monthly, giving out statistics, etc.

I'd like to make a comment here. The RCMP response time is considered by some to be not adequate, but what happened to me happened in a matter of seconds. These people came in. They got my truck. I was less than two minutes from my back door when they were in, got my truck and were gone. For all my neighbours who have had similar experiences with rural crime and whatnot, it's the same thing: They're in; they get what they want and they're gone. You can't even phone 911 in time.

The frustrating part as a councillor is that you have complaints all the time about rural crime, rural crime, rural crime. The reality is that those criminals are so knowledgeable that the average person cannot really cope with it.

3:55 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal John McKay

I'm sorry, Mr. Priestley-Wright, but I have to stop Mr. Picard there. As you can appreciate, being a councillor at one point, the clock is the enemy of everyone.

I think it's Mr. Eglinski. No, it's Mr. Paul-Hus.

3:55 p.m.

Conservative

Pierre Paul-Hus Conservative Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC

No, it's Mr. Eglinski.

3:55 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal John McKay

Mr. Eglinski.

3:55 p.m.

Jim Eglinski Yellowhead, CPC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'd like to thank both witnesses for being here.

I'll start with Mr. Priestley-Wright, but I will call him Fred because we've known each other for many years.

Fred, shortly after your incident, when you returned from the hospital, there was a rural crime meeting held in Peers, a community very close to yours, and I believe you were there. I wonder if you would advise the group here on the sentiment of the people in that meeting. There were approximately 250 to 300 people there, and they were there because of rural crime. I wonder if you could just relate quickly what the atmosphere was like in that room.

3:55 p.m.

As an Individual

Fredrick Priestley-Wright

I'll call you Jim.

The atmosphere was not what I thought it would be. The people were upset. They weren't upset necessarily at the RCMP or the system or anything else; it was more frustration, I think. For example, people were saying the criminal can come into your home and he has more rights in your home than you do. In other words, if you tried to restrain him if he was beating your wife, and he fell and broke his arm, you could be charged with assault, things of this nature. This is the reality. We're told, “Phone 911. Phone 911.” We're frustrated, and there was a lot of flustration voiced at that particular meeting. We know that the RCMP can't react fast enough. These criminals are so knowledgeable. Maybe they have training sessions when they're incarcerated, I don't know, but they certainly know what they're doing and they certainly have the average citizen, you would say, at their mercy.

3:55 p.m.

Yellowhead, CPC

Jim Eglinski

Fred, there are some people who want to make us believe that handguns or weapons are the umbrella over this whole crime wave thing. I wonder if you would give us your perspective. If handguns were banned last year, would that have prevented the attack that you experienced? Do you believe handguns are a situation in rural Canada?

3:55 p.m.

As an Individual

Fredrick Priestley-Wright

I don't feel that handguns are of concern in rural Canada. They definitely are in the cities. In the rural areas, people just don't have that many handguns. There aren't that many out there. We have guns for protection.

As you know, Jim, where I live and whatnot, when I go from home to my sawmill less than half a mile away, I can see grizzly tracks, I can see cougar tracks, and I'm out there working by myself. The only protection I have is a guard dog and/or a rifle. That's the reality in rural western Canada.

4 p.m.

Yellowhead, CPC

Jim Eglinski

Thank you.

How much time do I have left, Mr. Chair?

4 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal John McKay

You've got....

4 p.m.

Yellowhead, CPC

Jim Eglinski

You're burning up my time.

4 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal John McKay

I'm not burning up your time; it's just that this clock is wrong. We'll go with three minutes, because I'm such a nice fellow.

4 p.m.

Yellowhead, CPC

Jim Eglinski

Fred, would you explain to the committee the judicial experience that you have been experiencing for quite a long time? The RCMP were able to apprehend the two youths, one age 18 and one age 17, within probably a week of the incident, maybe a little less than that. Maybe you can relate what your experience has been with the courts.

4 p.m.

As an Individual

Fredrick Priestley-Wright

I have spent many hours sitting on hard benches in the Edson courtroom waiting to hear a plea from both individuals, waiting and having the situation set down to another court date, etc. I checked my records, and I believe I sat in the court nine different times waiting for something to come of it. October 1 of this year, we were supposed to have a hearing with respect to the one individual who is not currently in jail, and that is now set over to December 14.

I hope I have a second, as I just want to say this. Sitting there, I got a feeling that our judges, our Crown prosecutors and our defence people were trying hard, but they are just so understaffed that they cannot do their jobs properly. As a result, we're seeing situations like I'm experiencing. I don't blame the judge. I don't blame, as I said, the Crown prosecutors. It's the system, I'm sorry to say.

4 p.m.

Yellowhead, CPC

Jim Eglinski

Thank you.