Public Safety Committee on Oct. 23rd, 2018

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Thank you, Mr. Eglinski, and I apologize to you for running the clock poorly.

[Jim Eglinski]

It's okay.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Ms. Moore, you have seven minutes.

[Christine Moore, NDP, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

Thank you very much.

I would like to address Mr. Priestley-Wright.

I'm from northern Quebec, from Abitibi-Témiscamingue. This northern region is located right next to Ontario. Where I'm from, the types of crime you are talking about—property crime—often come in waves. Local teenagers and young adults commit crimes like this. They usually get caught very quickly because someone notices something in the community.

Since the start of the study, we have been trying to understand why the statistics are different between the western provinces and northern Quebec and Ontario.

To your knowledge, based on what has happened to you and your neighbours, and your experience as a city councillor, are these property crimes committed by people from neighbouring towns or are they city people who come to commit crimes in rural areas?

[Fredrick Priestley-Wright]

The RCMP would probably be the best to give you that information.

It appears to the majority of us that the people who are doing the crime are not from the local area. In my case, for example, I believe one was from Edmonton, which is a two-hour drive from my place. The other was from Grande Cache, which is also about a two-hour drive from my place. How they got together I really don't know. It was organized or semi-organized juvenile crime, I suspect. It's not primarily the local people.

[Christine Moore, NDP, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

Right.

[Fredrick Priestley-Wright]

I think the difference there is that, for us, we have more of a road network than you probably do in the area that you're talking about. It's easier for people to come from outside of the area and into our areas, the rural areas.

[Christine Moore, NDP, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

Thank you very much.

I wasn't asking for a specific answer with numbers. I really wanted an answer about your experience, and you answered my question very well. That was enough.

In terms of gun control, I have a question for you, Ms. Cukier.

You mentioned in particular that more police officers are killed on duty in rural areas. Can this be explained by the type of firearms used?

I imagine that when urban police officers face gunshots, handguns are often used. However, when shootings occur in rural areas, they often involve large caliber weapons, such as 300 Winchester Magnums, 30-06 rifles or 308 Magnums.

I imagine there is a limit to the protection of bulletproof vests. For example, when firearms are used in rural areas, the risk of death is higher because the guns are often large calibre and have a greater range.

[Prof. Wendy Cukier]

I think that's an interesting explanation, but I don't think it aligns with the evidence. If that were the explanation, then what you would see is lots of police officers shot in urban centres but not dying, in contrast to police officers being shot in rural areas and dying. I don't think there's any evidence to support that.

The last police officer who was shot and killed in Toronto, for example, was Todd Baylis in 1994. There have been three police officers since then killed in the greater Montreal area. But if you look at the other 20 or 30 who were killed, it's Lac-Simon, it's Edmonton, RCMP, RCMP, RCMP, RCMP, Kativik, OPP, RCMP, RCMP Saskatchewan, RCMP Saskatchewan, Windsor, Laval—I would count that as part of the greater Montreal area—RCMP, RCMP, RCMP, RCMP.

If you look at the geographic breakdown, the explanation is, frankly, that often police officers go on calls, and in those communities they're more likely to be going to a home with a firearm. If you look at the circumstances under which police are shot and killed, it's typically not in a shootout with a gang in an urban centre. It's typically someone who's disturbed in the midst of a domestic violence incident, or someone who's suicidal, or in some cases, for example in the case of Mayerthorpe, someone who had a beef against the police. We saw that in Moncton, as well.

[Christine Moore, NDP, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

Okay.

I still have a question for you.

When, for example, people with mental health problems, who may be at risk, consult a health professional, how often are they reported to the RCMP unit responsible for the disorder, so that an assessment of the disorder can be made to determine if they are still fit to own a firearm?

Do health professionals consider reporting cases of people with mental health problems, such as depression or specific adjustment disorders?

[Prof. Wendy Cukier]

Again, I think that's a good question.

I'm not sure if the committee called Dr. Barbara Kane, who works in Prince George. She's a psychiatrist. Certainly she's somebody who does routinely notify the police when she thinks someone has a mental health problem.

You can look incident by incident. For example, there have been a number of very terrible cases of domestic violence, in particular, where health care professionals really didn't understand the risks of allowing individuals with PTSD, or suicidal ideation, or a history of domestic violence, and didn't even raise the issue of whether they had access to firearms. We know that's a huge problem in instances of domestic violence, especially over the last 10 years when the awareness of the risks associated with firearms in the home has really diminished.

I wouldn't for a moment suggest that firearms don't serve a purpose in rural communities or in indigenous communities, and so on. But if you have a teenager who is showing mental health problems, if you have someone with depression, suicidal...or who is acting out, having guns in the home is a tremendous risk factor.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Thank you, Dr. Cukier.

Ms. Damoff, welcome back to the committee.

[Pam Damoff, Liberal, Oakville North—Burlington, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you to both our witnesses for being here.

My question is for you, Wendy. Welcome back.

Last week two witnesses who appeared before the committee—they were asked to appear by our Conservative colleagues—called on the government to enhance the provisions of the Criminal Code around self-defence and property defence so that property owners can act as the first line of defence without fear of prosecution.

In this particular case, the individual was charged and later acquitted after he fired warning shots towards trespassers on his rural property. They appeared to be breaking into his car, and a ricocheting bullet hit one of them. These individuals said, “Firearms aren't the problem in Canada. Our justice system is the problem”. They also said that in these communities people would prefer to “shoot, shovel and shut up” rather than contact the authorities.

I'm wondering what your thoughts are on lessened restrictions on firearms as a solution to property crime.

[Prof. Wendy Cukier]

If arming for self-protection worked, the United States would be the safest country in the world. Last year they had more than 10,000 firearm murders, which was substantially more than we had.

I'll reiterate what the data show. The data show that property crime in urban and rural contexts are about the same. What's different is violent crime. I actually think the availability of firearms in rural areas is part of the problem, not the solution.

If you compare the United Kingdom, Canada, the U.S. and Australia, you will see that the rate per 100,000 of murders without guns is roughly the same, but when you put guns into the mix, you see massive differences. The United Kingdom, which has 60 million people, had 27 gun murders last year. They had just as many stabbings, beatings and stranglings as we did on a per capita basis, but they had 27 gun murders.

I think people who are arguing for arming for self-protection may really believe that to be the case. They may be buying into American-style rhetoric, but there is absolutely zero evidence—like, zero evidence—in the public health or criminology literature that's credible that suggests that that will make us safer.

I'll go back to what the United Nations has said about the impact on the safety of women. Where there are more guns, you're going to see more dead women, more suicides and higher rates of interpersonal violence with firearms. That evidence is absolutely clear.

I would really urge the committee to recognize that many people who are fearful and frustrated—and I can understand the frustrations with the justice system—may desire to take the law into their own hands. The Supreme Court of Canada has said repeatedly that there is no right to bear arms in Canada. Our laws were designed to not encourage U.S.-style arming for self-protection. I think that will take us down a path of no return. If people think violent crime is a problem now, more guns will make us far less safe.

[Pam Damoff, Liberal, Oakville North—Burlington, ON]

Do you actually have the stats comparing Canada and the United States? You mentioned the United States and you just said Canada was much lower. Do you have the actual statistics?

[Prof. Wendy Cukier]

Yes. The United States has 10 times as many people as we do. They had 11,004 murders with guns in 2016. We had 223. If the proportions were the same, they would have had around 2,000. They have substantially higher rates of gun homicide.

If you look at murders without guns, they're about twice as high. We were 0.93 per 100,000 and they were 1.94. This really reinforces the fact that more guns make us less safe. More guns result in more dead children, more dead women and more dead police officers.

This pattern is consistent, tragically, across Canada. If you compare the rates of gun ownership to the rates of gun death and injury in this country, you see those rates of firearm-related violent crime replicated. The provinces where there are the most guns have the highest rates of women killed with guns and the highest rates of suicide.

The evidence if very clear on this point.

[Pam Damoff, Liberal, Oakville North—Burlington, ON]

I wonder also if you would be able to provide us with that list of police officers. You read it off, but I wonder if you could just send that off to the clerk.

[Prof. Wendy Cukier]

Yes. As I said at the outset, I'm happy to provide a written brief, translated and with the data that I'm citing.

[Pam Damoff, Liberal, Oakville North—Burlington, ON]

Thank you very much.

As you know, our study is on rural crime, but so far much of the discussion has focused on property crime, things like trespassing and people breaking into cars. Do you have any information on whether crime involving firearms has increased in recent years in rural areas? Second to that, what about intimate partner violence involving a firearm?

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

You have a little less than a minute.

[Prof. Wendy Cukier]

I'm happy to send that through as well.

The Canadian Association of Chiefs of Police reported on that. Statistics Canada has reported on that. While, as I said at the outset, firearm violence in Toronto has received a lot of attention lately because of the feeling that it was random and people were victimized in places where they expected to be safe, the pattern is consistent across the country. The concerns should be shared in all communities and not just focused on large urban centres.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Okay, we're going to have to leave it there. Thank you, Ms. Damoff.

Mr. Paul-Hus, you have five minutes.

[Pierre Paul-Hus, Conservative, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

From the way it started, I think our study is a little twisted. Our study is looking at the problem of crime in rural areas.

We met with witnesses, such as the Maurice family, and today we have Mr. Priestley-Wright. However, everything revolves around their story, and we aren't trying to know who the people are who commit the crimes, why they commit them and how they are supported. Last week, individuals broke into a property, and in the case of Mr. Priestley-Wright, an attempt was made to steal his vehicle.

My colleague Ms. Damoff has already asked the question, but in your opinion, Mr. Priestley-Wright, are most crimes in Alberta committed by little scoundrels 17 or 18 years old or are they organized groups? Is car theft currently the most common crime?

[Fredrick Priestley-Wright]

I feel that it's organized, maybe not tightly organized but loosely organized. They all have their connections. Whatever they steal they have a home for, so to speak.

I'd like to make one comment, if I may. In most of our petty crime in rural areas, I believe the hoodlums use knives. They don't use guns. I agree with the comment made earlier that long-rifle deaths and whatnot occur with people who have mental problems. I'm trying to think back. In all of my years, I would suggest that the majority of the shootings of which I've been aware have been by people who have been shown to be mentally unstable. In other words, I was attacked with knives. Everybody is attacked with knives. I cannot remember an incident of rural crime where the perpetrators used long guns.

[Pierre Paul-Hus, Conservative, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

I would like to summarize. When it happened, you weren't in a position to call the police. Someone tried to steal your vehicle, and it happened quickly. The individuals were subsequently arrested. You mentioned that the judicial process has been very long. You are now telling us that one of the individuals hasn't been incarcerated. Do you know why?

You also mentioned that there was a lack of resources for judges and lawyers. As federal MPs, it is important that we understand where there is a lack of resources. These people were arrested, but why weren't they incarcerated? They tried to kill you, which we think is serious. Why do you say resources are lacking?