Public Safety Committee on Nov. 6th, 2018

[Anne Kelly]

Actually, of the offenders we have in our current segregation, we have a percentage who are there voluntarily. Work is under way right now to see how we can work with them to find alternatives to current segregation.

In some of our institutions in which we have ranges or units that currently are not full, we're trying to see whether we can take some of these offenders and place them in those ranges.

Fraser, do you want to elaborate?

[Chief Superintendent Fraser Macaulay, Acting Senior Deputy Commissioner, Correctional Service of Canada]

Yes.

It's a bit twofold. First, in the SIUs we'd be looking at the root cause of their not being willing to integrate. Then, if there were requirements to intervene, we would do so. The other object right now is that if they just plainly don't assimilate and we can find other places where they can, we're going to be looking at that solution as well. It's thus a two-pronged approach.

[Julie Dabrusin, Liberal, Toronto—Danforth, ON]

I appreciate that response.

The reason I raise the question is that this seemed to be pointed out as a subpopulation for whom hard caps on the number of days were harder to deal with. I'm trying to see where the potential solutions are and how this system might be able to deal with this group.

I have another question. When I was reading through the decision, I noticed some inmate stories. There was one individual who talked about how she had managed to take classes in the regular mainstream population, which had increased her education, I believe from grade 5 to almost graduating, but who said that once she was in segregation, because somebody was basically just dropping off assignments for her and leaving, she didn't complete.

How do you see our being able to provide classes or education in the structured intervention units that wouldn't involve someone just dropping off a piece of paper and saying, “This is your assignment for this week”? How would you manage that in this new structure?

[Anne Kelly]

As part of the structured intervention units, there will also be teachers who are available to work with the offenders, so the offenders who are upgrading their education will be able to pursue that course and finish upgrading their education.

[Julie Dabrusin, Liberal, Toronto—Danforth, ON]

The way I understand it is that there are teachers now. They just don't spend time directly with the inmates in that way, if they are in what is right now administrative segregation. Do there need to be different kinds of physical spaces so that these inmates can perhaps have time with a teacher one on one, or in a group setting? How would that work?

[Anne Kelly]

As I mentioned earlier, in current segregation the offenders are each in their cell. With the structured intervention units, we're going to look at whether it's possible that certain groups of offenders can associate together, and if they can, then we'll be able to offer programming to that group of offenders. It's the same with actually teaching.

[Julie Dabrusin, Liberal, Toronto—Danforth, ON]

Thank you. That's helpful, because this question really struck me when I was looking through the different stories about rehabilitation and about trying to allow people to continue on the course they were on.

Here is the other thing I was curious about. This is shifting a bit, but we had talked about and had been studying ion scanners here at committee. In this bill, I see that bringing in body scanners is part of what's foreseen.

Is there a point at which you envision body scanners potentially replacing ion scanners and their use for visitors?

[Anne Kelly]

I'll ask my colleague to respond to that.

[C/Supt Fraser Macaulay]

There is the possibility that under different conditions this would occur. The body scan will depend on what technologies we're going to use, and there's still a lot of reviewing to be done as to what type of technology it will be and where the units will be placed within the institution.

The ion scan, however, is not just for drugs. It's for other things as well. These systems will be working together. I don't see a scenario in which we'll just completely eliminate ion scans.

[Julie Dabrusin, Liberal, Toronto—Danforth, ON]

I believe I'm out of time.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Yes. Thank you. We have to leave it there.

Mr. Paul-Hus, you have the floor for seven minutes.

[Pierre Paul-Hus, Conservative, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I am still unconvinced as to this bill's true intentions. The idea is to end administrative segregation, but people will be locked up in a cell for 20 hours a day. It's basically the same, just two hours less per day. Currently, incarcerated individuals in regular areas of penitentiaries have access to services. The administrative segregation area is for dangerous inmates, inmates in crisis who need to calm down, and people who ask to go there to get away from other prisoners.

I get that there has been abuse in some places and that there have been problems, but the basic principle hasn't changed. The bill seems to be about creating a section that will look like a regular cell block but be for inmates in segregation who can be in contact with one another. There are two basic reasons for segregation: prisoners are segregated because they are very dangerous and have to be kept away from others or because they want to be segregated.

What's the goal here? Don't you think this will end up creating three distinct areas: the regular area, a new area called a structured intervention unit and the actual administrative segregation area? A maximum security penitentiary is not full of choir boys. Maybe the goal is to create a kinder, gentler environment, but there still has to be a stricter area, right?

[Anne Kelly]

To be admitted to a structured intervention unit, offenders have to meet certain criteria. Inmates may be moved for reasons related to the security of the penitentiary or of other inmates. That is how it's done now, and that will continue to be the case. Inmates can be segregated. The main difference has to do with being allowed out of their cells for at least four hours a day, two of which are for programs tailored to their needs and structured interventions led by professionals.

[Pierre Paul-Hus, Conservative, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

That would be done individually though because those inmates cannot be allowed to interact. The point of putting people in segregation is to cut off human contact. If you set up discussion groups with these inmates, you're going to have a problem.

[Anne Kelly]

Some of the inmates in these units may be allowed to interact. If so, they may be offered group programs, such as educational activities. It may be impossible for others to interact because of incompatibility, so they will have to go to individual sessions.

[Pierre Paul-Hus, Conservative, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

That's what I was saying earlier. There's going to have to be another area just for segregation. For some inmates, that's the only solution. They can't interact with others ever. I'm thinking of Paul Bernardo, a guy who should have been in segregation full time from day one of his imprisonment. He is a hopeless case, and I highly doubt you'd be able to get him to participate in a group discussion for group therapy. He's not the only one.

[Anne Kelly]

True, these units would not be appropriate for some offenders. If they can function in groups, we'll do that, but for others there will have to be individual sessions.

[Pierre Paul-Hus, Conservative, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

Okay.

I'd like to talk some more about body scanners. My understanding is that these devices work very well but are not infallible. I believe Ontario and British Columbia are already using them. I gather they have a 95% success rate for detecting drugs and other objects, such as cell phones, hidden on or in a person's body. Can you confirm that these scanners are 95% effective at detecting drugs people are trying to smuggle into penitentiaries?

[Anne Kelly]

I don't know what the devices' success rate is.

[Pierre Paul-Hus, Conservative, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

Okay.

Are they that advanced though?

[Anne Kelly]

We are still in the process of comparing various models.

[Pierre Paul-Hus, Conservative, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

Ontario is already using them, and so is British Columbia. Have you been in touch with those provinces to find out how well the devices are working?

[Anne Kelly]

Yes. We've been talking to the provinces that are already using them to find out how it's going and what their success rates are. That being said, we are currently comparing different models.

[Pierre Paul-Hus, Conservative, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

Bill C-83 seems to indicate that these scanners would be used to examine inmates, but it seems that they are not necessarily meant to be used for all visitors. Do you think it would be a good idea to go that far?

[Anne Kelly]

The bill refers to offenders, visitors and staff.