Public Safety Committee on Nov. 6th, 2018

[Pam Damoff, Liberal, Oakville North—Burlington, ON]

Thanks, Chair.

I have a few questions, so I'm going to ask if you can be brief.

There's a proposed section in the bill that allows the commissioner to classify penitentiaries or areas. It's proposed section 29.1. I'm just wondering if you can clarify it for us. I know that we have multi-level security institutions right now. I visited one, the Edmonton Institute for Women. It is minimum, medium and maximum security. Perhaps you can clarify what that proposed section does.

Does it give you authority to designate individual areas within an institute?

[Anne Kelly]

I would be able to create, for example, certain areas of the institution as a health care unit or as a structured intervention unit. That's what it's going to allow me to do.

[Pam Damoff, Liberal, Oakville North—Burlington, ON]

Thank you.

When we were studying indigenous women in corrections at status of women committee, one of the things that came up a number of times was the misuse of Gladue reports in corrections. They are applied for justice for the trial, but when women were getting into prisons, they were being used because these women had faced poverty, substance abuse or trauma. Sometimes they were being used to increase security classifications to say that they needed more time in different areas.

I'm wondering how we ensure, now that it's going to be legislated that you look at them, that those reports are being used in a positive way and not being misused against offenders to make it worse for them in prison.

[Anne Kelly]

It's through training. We were very good at documenting the unique circumstances of indigenous offenders. Where it's more difficult is taking those factors, which, as you say, are often aggravating factors, looking at alternative options and then seeing if those options can be applied.

Mr. Macaulay and I were at several institutions, and the staff were saying that the quality of their reports has increased through the training. They understand better how to use those factors and then look at alternative options.

[Pam Damoff, Liberal, Oakville North—Burlington, ON]

Thank you.

[Anne Kelly]

What the parole officers have shared with us, which is very encouraging, is that it's not only the quality of the reports for indigenous offenders, but they're looking at every offender differently and looking at their unique circumstances.

[Pam Damoff, Liberal, Oakville North—Burlington, ON]

Thank you.

I understand, when I visited the Regional Psychiatric Centre, that health care workers there have authority now. In that institute, they work alongside parole officers and corrections officers. Is that what you're envisioning in these SIUs, a similar type system where they're working side by side and not one on top of the other?

[Anne Kelly]

Absolutely. It's going to be integrated so people work together. Jennifer can speak more to this, but even in our treatment centres, you'll see in the morning the staff get together, and it's not siloed. It's all the different groups of staff talking about what's going on and the different cases.

[Jennifer Wheatley]

I think one of the unique things about working in the correctional system is that the interdisciplinary team for any patient includes correctional officers, parole officers and elders, because we all need to work collaboratively with the patient on the same treatment goals. We certainly define interdisciplinary teams very broadly based on our environment.

[Pam Damoff, Liberal, Oakville North—Burlington, ON]

Do we envision additional training for corrections staff, mental health training in particular? I was quite concerned at the Regional Psychiatric Centre that they only get one hour of mental health training there, which to me seems grossly inadequate for the types of interventions they need. I only have 30 seconds left, but I'm just wondering if you can speak to the need for additional training, mental health training in particular?

[Jennifer Wheatley]

We're consistently and constantly reviewing the training we provide to staff. A lot of the training that we previously provided as stand-alone courses is now integrated into existing courses, integrated into the first course the correctional officers receive. We've integrated mental health training into that course so that when you're learning about static and dynamic factors, you learn about how those are impacted for people with mental health needs. It's a much more integrated way of doing training as opposed to stand-alone courses. We're also always reviewing that, getting feedback from staff and reviewing our national training standards.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Thank you, Ms. Damoff.

Mr. Dubé, you have the final three minutes.

[Matthew Dubé, NDP, Beloeil—Chambly, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I would like to discuss the exceptions proposed in clause 10 of Bill C-83, which amends subsection 37 of the Corrections and Conditional Release Act. One of the exceptions would allow inmates to refuse the opportunity to spend at least four hours a day outside their cell or interact with others for at least two hours a day.

Are there any mechanisms in place in the event that the opportunities offered pose a problem? I didn't see anything in the bill. I'm thinking of something like a snow storm, heavy rain or ice storm. Are there any provisions that protect the inmates' right to spend time outside their cells in reasonable conditions?

[Anne Kelly]

I'm not sure I understand your question.

[Matthew Dubé, NDP, Beloeil—Chambly, QC]

I'm referring to a situation where inmates might refuse to avail themselves of the opportunity to go outside if, for example, it's -40°C or there is a big snow storm. If an inmate if offered the opportunity to go outside for fresh air in those conditions, it's not hard to imagine them refusing, as most of us probably would.

Is there some kind of protection to ensure that reasonable offers are made to inmates, so that they won't have to refuse the opportunities offered because they are inappropriate?

[Anne Kelly]

Yes, if it's -40°C and too cold for inmates to go outside, they still have the opportunity to leave their cell and go to a common area.

[Matthew Dubé, NDP, Beloeil—Chambly, QC]

That's great.

If it's raining, is the timing of when they leave their cell left up to the discretion of the institutional head? Are inmates being penalized by the fact that the bill doesn't include any reasonable grounds for refusing? To the extent that the goal is to limit the use of segregation, do we not run the risk of creating a situation with this bill where inmates are being discouraged from availing themselves of their time out of their cell, which is already pretty limited?

[Anne Kelly]

No. Inmates will be offered the opportunity to go outside, that's true. If the weather does not allow that, they can still leave their cell.

[Matthew Dubé, NDP, Beloeil—Chambly, QC]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Thank you, Mr. Dubé.

On behalf of the committee, I want to thank Commissioner Kelly and her colleagues for their appearance here today.

Colleagues, before I adjourn this meeting, I need a motion to pass the budget for the study on Bill C-83.

I see Mr. Picard, and I see that Mr. Eglinski is also enthusiastic about this.

Is there any debate?

(Motion agreed to)

Thank you very much.

The meeting is adjourned.