Public Safety Committee on Nov. 8th, 2018

[Matthew Dubé, NDP, Beloeil—Chambly, QC]

Thanks for that.

I don't know if this is something new, but the bill talks about it. You mentioned in your comments the designation of security classifications. One of them is multi-level. Is that something that exists currently, that the commissioner can designate multi-level? What consequence does that have for you?

You just mentioned anecdotally the situation in which you have hands-on knowledge about how problems can arise. If the commissioner is designating, I would imagine, to facilitate the creation of these new SIUs, is that something that can be seen as problematic, not just for you but even for the rehabilitative outcomes that are being sought in the system?

[Jason Godin]

We have multi-level institutions now. They can designate them as multi-level as it stands right now. The tricky part about multi-level is being able to manage the various populations. If you're managing a minimum-, medium- or maximum-security population all within one institution and different various mental health units, you have to realize that our little community inside is only so big. We can only move so much and we can only deliver so many programs in the course of a day.

Multi-level institutions become a little bit complicated. We refer to them sometimes as subpopulations. Subpopulations have to be managed very, very carefully. Sometimes we can't mix various populations. The current policies allow the commissioner to designate an institution as multi-level as it is. As we see the bill, it clearly gives the commissioner some power to assign different levels of security within the institution. That, to some degree, exists right now. We have different levels of units, but again, keep in mind that in some institutions, we may have seven, eight or nine different populations, which puts a tremendous resourcing strain on how we manage and how we can move inmates from an operational and safety standpoint.

It does exist. We're just a little bit concerned about how those designations would go, and certainly those designations have to be in consultation with the front-line correctional officer.

[Matthew Dubé, NDP, Beloeil—Chambly, QC]

My final quick question is to you, Mr. Benson. We share the concerns you raised over the language when we were talking about a governing body versus a community.

You mentioned what your suggested amendment was, but can you just explain quickly what the concern would be and what would be missed out on? What's the risk of not fixing the language in the current legislation?

[Dr. Allen Benson]

There are two things. One, as it stands now, a governing body is referred to only as first nations elected officials, Inuit or Métis, and in many cases we have indigenous organizations that are representative of those communities. That's part of it.

Two, we need to eliminate the possibility of non-indigenous organizations stepping into the business of healing and running healing lodges. To be very frank, that is exactly what's happening in areas of child welfare, justice and corrections. We're very clear that it hasn't worked when run by these organizations for the last 200 years. It's not going to start working now.

The impact of indigenous-run healing lodges.... It has been proven that our 87% success rate, as evaluated by Correctional Service Canada, is because it is indigenous-based. It's evidence-based research and trauma-based treatment.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Okay. We'll have to leave it there.

Thank you.

Ms. Dabrusin is next, for seven minutes please.

[Julie Dabrusin, Liberal, Toronto—Danforth, ON]

Thank you.

I would like to pick up with Mr. Benson.

When you were talking about the indigenous governing body, I was looking at the definition. Let's go to section 80, about the programs you talked about. You included additional wording that you would have added, saying, “grounded in indigenous research and data”. Is that correct?

[Dr. Allen Benson]

Right.

[Julie Dabrusin, Liberal, Toronto—Danforth, ON]

I was looking at call to action 36 from the Truth and Reconciliation Commission's calls to action. If we adopt the wording you propose, would you see this section as fulfilling that call to action?

[Dr. Allen Benson]

Absolutely, and so do my colleagues. We have had extensive consultation with indigenous academics across Canada around these issues and this language. We think addressing that question of world view allows for that expertise, that knowledge, the culture and the spirituality to be incorporated.

[Julie Dabrusin, Liberal, Toronto—Danforth, ON]

How would that work? I apologize, because I don't have the exact words you proposed in front of me. I was trying to sketch it all out.

What would that look like? I only have it as “grounded in indigenous research”. I'm not sure if I have that right.

[Dr. Allen Benson]

We talk about programs that are culturally relevant, grounded in indigenous evidence-based research and with an indigenous world view.

[Julie Dabrusin, Liberal, Toronto—Danforth, ON]

Okay. Is that wording incorporated in any other legislation or policy? Do we have anything else we can use as a comparison of how that works?

[Dr. Allen Benson]

Not yet, although recently in Alberta, in the new child welfare legislation, they've adopted that language.

[Julie Dabrusin, Liberal, Toronto—Danforth, ON]

Okay. It's good to have something we can look to as another example of it.

I'm really curious about the discussion we've heard on the need for further oversight. It's come up a few times. In fact, I believe you're the first person to have actually suggested a model for it. You suggested an on-site ombudsman who would report to the correctional investigator for these organizations.

If I can jump to Mr. Godin, how do you feel about that suggestion as an oversight mechanism?

[Jason Godin]

To be honest with you, I have to defend the service. We do a pretty good job of oversight on our own. We're not asking for an independent oversight. We think we have the tools and the policies in place and the people to do what we need to do. We're managing 15,000 offenders on a daily basis, 365 days a year. We're not necessarily in favour of external oversight, because we believe we know our business better than anybody else.

That doesn't mean we don't make use of external resources to help us. Certainly on the indigenous file, by all means, absolutely we are open to that.

[Julie Dabrusin, Liberal, Toronto—Danforth, ON]

When I read the B.C. case and the Ontario case, due process and fair process—and oversight as part of that—played a fairly big role in both of those decisions. That's why, when I'm looking at what those decisions said, I'm not trying to cast aspersions on the way anybody works, but it seems to be what the courts identified as a need.

[Jason Godin]

That's what they've indicated, but at the same time it's very difficult to manage outside oversight given the operational needs, the population needs and the fact that we have routines going on. It's not that simple. Sometimes we have to put our trust in the organization and the professional men and women who are there to do the oversight with the current policy and legislation.

We understand what the court has said, but we think we do a pretty good job of oversight internally with the current policies we have.

[Julie Dabrusin, Liberal, Toronto—Danforth, ON]

I believe, Mr. Benson, you made a suggestion for a subsection 81(4). You said that was in your agreement. You had it in your agreement, but it wasn't in law. You want it to now be in law. I was wondering if you'd be able to help me understand.

What is the wording that you have in your agreement? Maybe if you don't have it all in front of you, you can send it in to us.

[Dr. Allen Benson]

Yes.

[Julie Dabrusin, Liberal, Toronto—Danforth, ON]

What would be the impact of that changed wording?

[Dr. Allen Benson]

First, I will share this as well with you. Our agreement allows for the full authority of a warden to operate a facility, basically, but the legislation doesn't back that up and provide for it. In essence, we're operating in an agreement with the minister. This new legislation doesn't reflect that agreement and it should be reflected. The minister should have that authority to delegate to us, and it should be reflected in the legislation.

[Julie Dabrusin, Liberal, Toronto—Danforth, ON]

Do you have specific wording that you would have us incorporate into this?

[Dr. Allen Benson]

I'll supply that.

Do you want me to read it again?

[Julie Dabrusin, Liberal, Toronto—Danforth, ON]

No that's fine. You can just send it in. That will be great, thanks.

[Dr. Allen Benson]

All right.