Public Safety Committee on Nov. 8th, 2018

[Ruby Sahota]

—segregation to be used in dangerous situations. That's what I meant by does it eliminate the existence of it.

[Lawrence Da Silva]

We believe that will only be utilized against violent offenders, but eventually we'll be the outcasts of everything.

[Ruby Sahota]

Thank you.

Can I ask the Elizabeth Fry Society another question as well? You talked about “meaningful human contact” and the lack of definition of that. Can you help describe what your definition is of that?

[Alia Pierini]

My definition of meaningful contact from CSC, is that what you're asking? The meaningful human contact that I got was all through a food slot, and it's not meaningful at all. For your extra hours out, you're still alone in a cell. As CAEFS, we'd like to see meaningful human contact in the form of people from the outside, doctors, counsellors, reintegration workers who are actually helping them plan and get ready for the release.

As corrections stands, your meaningful human contact is when the staff come through and talk to you for 10 minutes or the doctors who come through. They also said it's more like they're coming to hand out meds to inmates and it's not meaningful at all in that way.

[Ruby Sahota]

Do you think at all that this bill takes a step in the right direction to the vision that you have? I know that your vision goes to even having no prisons, but that's not currently, today, on the table. Do you think that having targeted interventions, which this bill allows for, program tailoring, all of those things, are improvements?

[Alia Pierini]

If implemented they would be. However, in the women's population, just in general pop, sometimes you're waiting months and months for programs, so I just don't know how they're going to all of a sudden allocate all these programs to the special unit when you have the women in general pop who aren't even being programmed, and they're not even the proper programs. I was sent through three substance abuse programs and I've never done drugs in my life, so they need something that's actually assertive and meant for the people who they're trying to rehabilitate.

[Lawrence Da Silva]

It also gives the consequence that you have to get in trouble in order to get programming. What about the rest of the population? I've been the rest of the population while people are getting in trouble, so what about me? I'm to be discriminated against because you're supplying multiple millions of dollars to programming in areas that those people need, but I need it too. It's a double-edged sword.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

We're going to have to leave it there. Thank you very much.

Mr. Eglinski, you have five minutes, please.

[Jim Eglinski, Yellowhead, CPC]

Thank you.

I'd like to thank both the Elizabeth Fry Society and the John Howard Society for coming out, but I'd really like to thank both of the other two witnesses, Alia and Lawrence. It takes a lot of nerve to come up here, and congratulations. I think you're giving us a clearer picture of the situation that's really out there.

I have a medium-security facility in my riding of Yellowhead, the Grande Cache Institution, which I think is probably one of the most beautiful settings for an institution anywhere in the world. It's right on top of a mountain. I've had the opportunity since Bill C-83 came out to talk to the guards, to the prisoners, to former guards and former prisoners. They don't like it, I don't like it and it's obvious you folks don't like it.

Lawrence, I'm going to ask you a couple of questions and some of them might be a little pointed, but I'm not trying to be.... First of all, I want to compliment you on the way you've handled yourself here.

We kept hearing from the commissioner and the other people—

[Lawrence Da Silva]

Yes, we have a history.

[Jim Eglinski]

—that Bill C-83 is all about rehabilitating the prisoners. You talked about administrative detention, preventive detention and disciplinary detention. In your experience—and you spoke about your vast experience—you said there's a need for it.

I wonder if you can quickly explain to the people why there's a need. Certain people need to be protected from the other inmates. Others need to be separated because of investigations and so on.

[Lawrence Da Silva]

I'll speak on all realms, although I do not like to touch on protective custody issues. I will touch on them to give you clarity for the rest, and for the safety of other individuals, but I don't like speaking outside of a code—a prisoner code.

[Jim Eglinski]

I understand that code very well.

[Lawrence Da Silva]

No. It's a code you don't understand as politicians, and you'll never understand it unless we start to have some of the conversations that are meant to be had between us.

Anne Kelly's decisions.... You must first understand that we have a history. She sat here before you on Tuesday. I offer my file to you again, like I offered it to the Senate, to show you her ability and inability to make positive decisions that reflect these decisions, such as confinement.

The structured intervention units you're speaking about right now reflect the SHU protocol. When I say that, I'm talking about the Sainte-Anne-des-Plaines, Quebec, maximum-security federal institution, which is not recognized by your own legislation that you guys passed in Parliament, and I'm holding you guys accountable. I was held there for seven years under her reign, and then she was elevated by you guys. I'm asking you guys to start reviewing those decisions and to start to understand.

What you're asking to be achieved, I'm not asking to be crushed. I don't want segregation to be crushed. If men are murdering each other in prison, we all have the right, as Canadian citizens, to be safe and secure. Under section 7 of the charter, we would appreciate if that could exist. If we can't supply it ourselves, we're depending on the guards to supply that, but not to take it away on just the allegations of security. Honestly, the men who are killing and stabbing each other and are in violent situations need to be separated and adjudicated appropriately.

[Jim Eglinski]

You mentioned earlier that you were released. You didn't get the help. You didn't get the treatments you sought.

With the way our penal system's working right now—

[Lawrence Da Silva]

You won't be able to help a single person here.

[Jim Eglinski]

Do you feel you were rehabilitated?

[Lawrence Da Silva]

No. It was I who did this, with the help of the John Howard Society.

[Jim Eglinski]

How about you, Alia? Do you feel you were rehabilitated in the program we've been talking about?

[Alia Pierini]

No, sir. I actually went to school and did a year of mental health after I was released, so I could fully understand and rehabilitate myself. Prison did nothing. I learned how to survive in there, but that's it.

[Jim Eglinski]

Thank you both for being honest with us.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Mr Dubé.

[Matthew Dubé, NDP, Beloeil—Chambly, QC]

With colleagues' permission, especially for our witnesses who have a personal experience, can we ensure it is made known to them that there's an option to submit written submissions as well, in addition to their testimony, just in case there are things they haven't been able to get to?

[Lawrence Da Silva]

I would have loved that. I would have loved to bring evidence to the committee today.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

That's a good point. Okay. Today doesn't necessarily end it.

I think we're down to our final five minutes, with Ms. Damoff.