All I want to add.... There isn't a lot to add to that, but I think we need to understand that the way our corrections system works is not the only way it has to work, and that's why my colleague and I keep talking about a need for deep-seated reform. We look at some of the measures that are discussed by Professor Andrew Coyle, who is an international expert who testified on our behalf at the Ashley Smith inquest. When asked by the jury at that inquest about alternatives to segregation, he didn't talk about somebody who was at the point of rage and loss of control and decompensation; he started from the very first night that a person arrives at a penitentiary, frightened and not sure, but provided with peer support and peer advocacy and the kinds of programming and rehabilitation that can be offered in a reform setting.
Therefore, similar in some ways to what Senator Pate is saying, we'd say the reform has to be at the institutional level.