Public Safety Committee on Nov. 22nd, 2018

[Pierre Paul-Hus, Conservative, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I want to thank everyone for being here.

A great deal has happened, including the possibility of a Russian being appointed head of INTERPOL. This was very worrying for us. Currently, 194 countries are members of INTERPOL, and a number of those countries have serious concerns about the level of government corruption. We talk about China and Russia, but other smaller and lesser known countries have corrupt governments.

INTERPOL's main goal is to enable police forces to share information. That said, we just talked about the red notices that can lead to an arrest warrant or a request for extradition. You said that, when the request comes from an INTERPOL member country that's considered more or less reliable, the facts are analyzed at the INTERPOL headquarters in Lyon. At this INTERPOL office, who determines whether the request is legitimate?

[C/Supt Scott Doran]

If you don't mind, I'll answer you in English to make myself understood.

The office of legal affairs of INTERPOL in Lyon is the one that reviews the requests. There's quite an arduous application process for somebody to put a red notice on.

I won't provide comment on individual countries, but I will say that the INTERPOL system and the constitution under which it operates are meant to mitigate the individual differences of countries and create an even playing field, if you will, for criminal investigations. Again, it operates under the spirit of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights and is quite clear in its mandate that it will not entertain requests that are deemed to be political, religious, military or racial in nature. With that, I believe the screening process is quite robust.

On occasion, do some get through that system? I would think so. Like any system, it's not perfect and it could be fallible. That's why Canada has put in a secondary vetting process that is quite robust.

I think it's relevant that while the INTERPOL office may get a request from a foreign agency or be acting on a red notice, the extent of our activity around that red notice, from a policing perspective, would be to identify the suspect or individual, confirm that they are in fact in Canada, potentially advise the foreign country that the person is here and that if they wish to pursue the matter, they are to contact the Department of Justice and enter into the extradition process, or make a request for extradition with the international assistance group. That's when a significant and very robust vetting process would happen, requiring the entire investigation to be turned over to the Canadian—

[Pierre Paul-Hus, Conservative, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

Okay, but the people who work at the Lyon office and who assess requests come from different countries. Do they have specific positions or assignment positions? How many countries are involved in the decisions? Who makes the decisions?

[C/Supt Scott Doran]

The office of legal affairs at INTERPOL is obviously at headquarters. Full-time INTERPOL employees conduct the vetting, based on the INTERPOL screening process.

[Pierre Paul-Hus, Conservative, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

Do these people come from member countries? Are they Europeans? Who works there in general?

[C/Supt Scott Doran]

They would most certainly be from member countries, but they are legally trained people who are full-time employees of INTERPOL.

[Pierre Paul-Hus, Conservative, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

INTERPOL's executive committee now has a South Korean president, and Gilles Michaud also sits on the committee. The 194 member countries have the right to vote on this.

Is there reason to believe that too many of those countries have government management issues and therefore shouldn't be members of INTERPOL? What do you think as a Canadian?

It's a matter of trust. Take the example of the Group of Five. These countries must have a high level of trust to be able to share information. As a police force, does Canada have concerns about certain members? Should we consider excluding some member countries from INTERPOL?

[C/Supt Scott Doran]

I would answer that in a couple of ways, I suppose. One, the executive committee is mandated to oversee both the ongoing operations of INTERPOL and the will of the general assembly. With that, of course, where a country has lost the confidence of the executive committee and perhaps the general assembly, there are processes in place to expulse, if you will, a country from INTERPOL. I don't think that decision would ever be taken lightly, obviously.

The other issue is.... I think we need to consider perhaps a difference between the policing community and the political community. Some countries may have issues politically, but the reality is, sir, we sometimes have an obligation to interact with their police regardless, because we're trying to investigate criminal offences. At times we will engage with them, having a regard for the charter and human rights and the ministerial directives on information sharing, but nevertheless we are sometimes put in a position where we will deal with countries we have to deal with in order to conduct criminal investigations.

[Pierre Paul-Hus, Conservative, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

I have one last question.

This week, the National Post informed us that Mr. Goodale's office told journalists that the concept of red notices would soon be changed. Are you aware of these changes?

[C/Supt Scott Doran]

No. I'm not.

[Pierre Paul-Hus, Conservative, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

Okay, thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Mr. Dubé, you have seven minutes, please.

[Matthew Dubé, NDP, Beloeil—Chambly, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I want to thank everyone for being here this morning.

You mentioned the ministerial directives on information sharing. If possible, can you tell us which protocol you use to share information with the different agencies that you work with through INTERPOL?

[C/Supt Scott Doran]

It's not just with INTERPOL, although INTERPOL is obviously a part of the process in terms of information exchange. With respect to the ministerial directive on exchanging information with foreign countries that have potentially questionable human rights, we have a process called the foreign information risk advisory committee within the RCMP. It's an in-house committee where we will conduct risk assessments of countries we intend to share information with. It's chaired by the director general of our national security criminal investigations unit. It comprises a host of people, including INTERPOL.

My colleague Ross has attended these FIRAC meetings, as have I. There's a country assessment done by our federal policing strategic direction group, and then there's a weight put on the risk assessment, together with the need to share. Depending on the nature of the offence you're investigating, on occasion it may be better not to share, and some other times you may deem it necessary to share.

That said, this process is quite robust and that's the way we would handle it. With what we call risk countries, INTERPOL may engage the FIRAC, but it's not limited to INTERPOL. It could involve our national security folks or our organized crime people. Of course, we have more than 48 liaison officers and analysts posted overseas who are responsible for engaging in information sharing with the countries as well. They are also involved in the FIRAC process to ensure that we're screening the information we're sharing properly and that we're comfortable sharing with the countries we end up sharing with.

[Matthew Dubé, NDP, Beloeil—Chambly, QC]

I wonder how the decision to send information to INTERPOL is reached.

Forgive my naivety or ignorance, but take the example of an arrest warrant issued against someone suspected of being in the United States. Obviously, given our close ties as allies, we must refer to some specific agreements that manage our relationship with the Americans rather than report the person's name to the international community through INTERPOL.

Which specific warrant would lead to the decision to involve the entire international community rather than only one or a few countries, on a bilateral or multilateral basis?

[C/Supt Scott Doran]

I think that's a fair question, and I think it exemplifies the fact that there are a number of ways to share information with foreign entities. One would be through INTERPOL. Often the INTERPOL channel is used when we are dealing with countries with which we may not have that type of Five Eyes relationship. We also have, of course, ongoing mutual investigations with certain countries. Of course, the RCMP and the FBI are usually engaged in an investigation, typically counterterrorism, on a regular basis, as we are with the authorities in the United Kingdom. They would be exchanging information among themselves outside of the INTERPOL framework.

We would also, in terms of counterterrorism and national-security type of information, typically not use INTERPOL for that purpose, although INTERPOL in the last number of years—I believe since 2004—has begun exchanging more and becoming more involved in counterterrorism types of activities. We still don't generally use INTERPOL for classified information sharing. We will use our international network of liaison officers to do that. For countries with which we still have maybe not really a significant or deep relationship but there's classified information or information on a matter related to national security, we will use our liaison officer network.

I would say that a large part of the INTERPOL network is akin to, for instance, our doing a national investigation and issuing a warrant for somebody and putting them on the Canadian Police Information Centre system, the CPIC system, through which they would be available to all Canadian police. INTERPOL is used in a similar manner, but on an international level.

Does that answer your question?

[Matthew Dubé, NDP, Beloeil—Chambly, QC]

I find it interesting that you mentioned anti-terrorism efforts. We may have the wrong impression as a result of the media coverage, but I would like you to clarify a few things. Ultimately, INTERPOL focuses on targeting certain types of crime more than others depending on the multilateral or bilateral relations of the different countries. Is that correct?

[C/Supt Scott Doran]

I wouldn't say there's a typical crime, outside of national security being removed from the equation, generally speaking. That's not to say other countries don't use INTERPOL for national security inquiries into Canada. They do regularly, in which case INTERPOL will generally move those requests over to our national security investigations units, and the liaison officer network then takes hold.

That said, I would say the nature and scope of criminality outside of national security that INTERPOL manages is as wide as the Criminal Code. I think what's important to remember, though, is that, based on what I explained earlier on the constitution and on INTERPOL not engaging in activities involving religious beliefs or military activity and so on, I think that's relevant, because, as INTERPOL in Canada, we would be looking at the requests coming in and making sure they align both with our legal framework and with our system of justice, to make sure that we are acting in such a way as we would act here, if you will.

I hope that answers your question.

[Matthew Dubé, NDP, Beloeil—Chambly, QC]

I had another question for you, but my speaking time is up.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Yes. Thank you for that, Mr. Dubé.

Monsieur Picard, go ahead for seven minutes, please.

[Michel Picard, Liberal, Montarville, QC]

Thank you, gentlemen.

I would invite you to work with me on a learning exercise, mainly for members of the public and students who would be interested in this morning's discussion, and I'll leave to my colleagues and me the leisure of looking at the political aspects of it.

I have a number of short questions. I'll start with an easy one. Can INTERPOL arrest someone?

[C/Supt Scott Doran]

No.

[Michel Picard, Liberal, Montarville, QC]

Therefore, INTERPOL needs the support of a local police force.

[C/Supt Scott Doran]

INTERPOL does not have a law enforcement arm.

[Michel Picard, Liberal, Montarville, QC]

Is the RCMP the only one that acts on behalf of INTERPOL, or can the OPP and Sûreté du Québec do the same?