Evidence of meeting #143 for Public Safety and National Security in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was fee.
A recording is available from Parliament.
5 p.m.
Registered Nurse, Canadian Association of Elizabeth Fry Societies
They did pay for it.
5 p.m.
Registered Nurse, Canadian Association of Elizabeth Fry Societies
I am sorry.
They did pay for it. They have done their sentence. They have completed all of their probation. They have done their time. They have gone to their mandatory courses to get their licences back. They have paid the fines. They have done all the steps that the justice system has asked them to do for their sentence.
5 p.m.
Liberal
Michel Picard Liberal Montarville, QC
It's a cold question to check a version of your understanding and my understanding of why it's done.
Ms. Latimer, you say often that we have a flawed system and that the act is full of flaws, but we hear mainly that it's complicated. Is this the only thing that is flawed?
5 p.m.
Executive Director, John Howard Society of Canada
I think there are a lot of things that are flawed. I think the fee structure is too high, which isn't connected directly with the act. I think the subjective and vague criteria that the Parole Board is being asked to apply raises some real concerns about the consistency of the decision-making and the validity of the evidentiary base they are using to make their determinations. I think you could have a much simpler process that would be just as effective, much less costly and much more streamlined if you really eliminated all of that investigative stuff.
All you really want to know is whether the person has continued to be crime free from when they completed their sentence to the time they reached their period of eligibility, and a simple CPIC check should give you that.
5 p.m.
Liberal
Pam Damoff Liberal Oakville North—Burlington, ON
I'm sorry. I had to step out, and I missed your testimony.
Mr. Small, I appreciate your being here to share a personal story with us.
We heard in the previous panel that for every dollar it costs the Parole Board, it generates two dollars in revenue for the government. That revenue would be because now someone can get a job, pay taxes and contribute to government revenues. In your experience with the people with whom you have worked, and for yourself personally, do you find that people are finding work after they get their parole and that they are are able maintain employment?
5 p.m.
Liberal
Pam Damoff Liberal Oakville North—Burlington, ON
I'm asking all three of you.
Mr. Small, what was your experience before and after?
5 p.m.
Core Group Member, 7th Step Society of Canada
What's so funny is that the organization I currently work for....
I'm here representing the 7th Step Society, as I'm an adamant volunteer in my community, and it's very important to me to support those who have been in the same position I have to reintegrate into society and to get to a place where they are very comfortable and happy with their lives.
I'm currently working for an organization called Common Good Solutions. We focus on social enterprise. You talked about the 2:1, and that's the lingo that we use, so you really made me feel comfortable. There's no question about it.
We're currently working on a project for Corrections Canada. That project is working towards an employment symposium, trying to figure out socially innovative ways to support that reintegration process, because at the end of the day, most of those people are having hard times finding jobs. Unless they know somebody, they are just not finding employment that is sustainable.
For the government jobs that can really hold us down, the ones that are sustainable and come with benefits, the first thing they ask you is, “Do you have a criminal record?” A lot of the major employers ask that very same question, and hence it creates a barrier.
5:05 p.m.
Conservative
The Vice-Chair Conservative Pierre Paul-Hus
Thank you, Ms. Damoff.
Mr. Eglinski, you have seven minutes.
5:05 p.m.
Yellowhead, CPC
I would like to thank all three of you for coming out today.
Rodney, that was very compelling. I'm very sad to hear how long it took you to go through the process. That's totally and completely unacceptable in my mind.
I stated earlier that I was a police officer for many years. Often people would come and say, “Jim, how am I going to get rid of my record?” I'd say, “Just go to the line. It's a very simple process. Just go through it.” I never would have believed that this is what we intended it to be. I think all three of you have said that it is very complicated to go through.
I'm going to start with Louise. You did this for a living before you moved on.
5:05 p.m.
Yellowhead, CPC
Many people who apply for pardons are just one-time offenders. Maybe you can throw the numbers back out.
As I've often said—thank you, Pam, for bringing it up—and as you have said, Catherine, if you haven't done anything for five years and it was a minor offence, it should be gone—CPIC, zip. We don't need to have a bunch of government employees running around for four years trying to clear a record.
I would like your comment on that.
5:05 p.m.
Registered Nurse, Canadian Association of Elizabeth Fry Societies
Yes. Now that I'm unfettered by no longer being an employee of the government.... I had so many shortcuts, especially for DUIs or simple possession charges. You make what has been deemed a youthful mistake. You do it once, and it's done. Those were the simplest to process, because the person hadn't done anything in years, and there isn't usually—I won't say never—anything in the other databases or on the local police records checks.
Those were the ones that were very quick and...I hate to say “dirty”, but it was very quick processing on our behalf.
5:05 p.m.
Yellowhead, CPC
Louise, do you find that a lot of people get frustrated, especially if they have a working career, and maybe they're trying to build themselves up like you did, Rodney, and they have this process? A lot of them just don't have time to get all those little things done. They'll walk away and say, “To hell with it, I haven't got time right now, because it's too....”
5:05 p.m.
Registered Nurse, Canadian Association of Elizabeth Fry Societies
It's too onerous, especially if you're in a profession, for example, nursing. To get my nursing licence, I had to submit a criminal records check. Before I got my job, I had to submit a criminal records check. Each time it was $55. Then, if I wanted to move jobs, and I became criminalized and I did not report it to the college, I'm stuck in my job until I can get the record suspension.
There are a lot of people who can't move, because, if they do move or if they change jobs, they will again be asked for a criminal records check and they will fail. Yes, it happens.
5:05 p.m.
Yellowhead, CPC
This will be a question to both Louise and Catherine.
You both work in organizations that deal with not-the-average society of people, people who sometimes have problems. In their younger days, they may have committed a lot more than one offence, but they have changed and they have become strong people in the community. They're raising families, maybe, and stuff like that.
Again, I want to go back in your experiences. Do you find many of them reoffending? They've been away from it for 10 years, out of the element, away from the street gang. They're now businessmen and they're working in a career. Do you find many of them go back to offend? Can you give a percentage?
5:10 p.m.
Executive Director, John Howard Society of Canada
Certainly the length of time away from the crime means that their likelihood of reoffending really declines. The first 60 days or 90 days after they complete their time in custody...but the people who are eligible for this are the ones who have put their lives back in order. If you've been clean for five years, chances are that you're on the right path. You have some stability. You have a really serious commitment to living crime-free lives, and these are the people who need to be rewarded and encouraged, not to be, as Rodney so eloquently put it, almost re-traumatized by going through this process. It's not a good process.
5:10 p.m.
Registered Nurse, Canadian Association of Elizabeth Fry Societies
Most of my clients now are still criminal, because they are injection drug users. They are dealing, they are using and they're in possession, and many of them have outstanding warrants. When they're able to put their lives together, some of them will be eligible and will do amazing work in the community, as Rodney said, and I admire them very much, because it takes a lot to be strong within a community that you formerly belonged to but are now an advocate for.
5:10 p.m.
Yellowhead, CPC
I have a quick question to all three of you. If you could remake the system—really quickly, about 30 seconds each—what would be the first thing you would change to make it simpler and easier?
5:10 p.m.
Executive Director, John Howard Society of Canada
I would take the Parole Board out of the system and just have it be the applicant to the RCMP. Have the RCMP manage the criminal records process.
5:10 p.m.
Registered Nurse, Canadian Association of Elizabeth Fry Societies
I would agree. Take the Parole Board out. It's too onerous and too complicated.
5:10 p.m.
Core Group Member, 7th Step Society of Canada
I would definitely agree as well, but I'd love to see a pardon come back. I mean, that word “pardon” just says so much more than “criminal record suspension”. It just feels like you're waiting for me, waiting for the numbers to go low to come knocking back on my door to tell me to get back over here.