Evidence of meeting #166 for Public Safety and National Security in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was cbsa.
A video is available from Parliament.
Conservative
Pierre Paul-Hus Conservative Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC
Do you have an answer for us or do you think we will change the agreement on safe third countries?
Liberal
Bill Blair Liberal Scarborough Southwest, ON
There are discussions. I've been involved in discussions with U.S. officials as well as our officials at both IRCC and CBSA. I know that it has been raised at a number of different levels of discussion, and I think there is an acknowledgement or recognition that it's an agreement that can be modernized and improved to the benefit of both countries, and those discussions are ongoing.
Conservative
Pierre Paul-Hus Conservative Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC
By "modernized" do you mean like we suggested last year?
Liberal
Bill Blair Liberal Scarborough Southwest, ON
As I recall, your suggestion was that we just unilaterally change a bilateral agreement, and that's not how that works. We have begun to have discussions with our treaty partner, the United States, to discuss many aspects of that agreement because we believe there is an opportunity for it to be improved and enhanced. Those discussions are ongoing.
It is not possible nor is it appropriate to simply unilaterally change a bilateral agreement.
Conservative
Pierre Paul-Hus Conservative Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC
We haven't said that. I know we would never say that. We've said that we have to deal—
Liberal
Bill Blair Liberal Scarborough Southwest, ON
Just to be clear, you said you would change it, and we said no, we would enter into discussions with our partner on how it could be improved.
Conservative
Pierre Paul-Hus Conservative Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC
Of course we have—
I have no more questions.
Liberal
NDP
Matthew Dubé NDP Beloeil—Chambly, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you for joining us, Minister Blair.
I'll ask you about your responsibilities regarding the border and the migrant situation. Some long responses have been provided. I'll provide a lengthy introduction and focus on the past, so that you can understand the context of my question. If my colleagues haven't seen the Radio-Canada report, I'd encourage them to watch it.
In 2011, I believe, the previous government implemented a program following two incidents where boats arrived in Canada with Tamil asylum seekers on board. The program still exists and spending has increased. Over $18 million is being spent on the program. People from CSIS, the RCMP and even CSE deal with shady individuals abroad, in countries that could be involved in smuggling migrants into Canada. We can agree that human rights are an issue in these places.
I want to know the following. How can you reconcile the government's approach of showing compassion for people in this situation with the fact that agencies are working for a ban abroad? People are being detained in countries where they may be subject to human rights violations.
If you aren't able to answer the question, I know that the people accompanying you today could do so. In the Radio-Canada report, neither the RCMP nor CSIS was able or willing to respond.
I'll let you answer my question. I'm sorry for the lengthy context, but it was important for my colleagues.
Liberal
Bill Blair Liberal Scarborough Southwest, ON
Thank you very much, Mr. Dubé.
If I understand your question appropriately—and I'll certainly invite officials to add any background that will assist you—in my experience there are, unfortunately, individuals.... Those who are seeking refuge and those who are fleeing war and persecution are in a very vulnerable state. Quite often, they are subject to exploitation by those who would intend to profit from that. So we have a responsibility as well to ensure that, to maintain the integrity of our refugee determination system and our borders, CBSA, the RCMP and others who work together have a responsibility, and we do work internationally.... Frankly, we are very concerned, and we've taken a number of steps to deal with those who would exploit people in a vulnerable position.
NDP
Matthew Dubé NDP Beloeil—Chambly, QC
Certainly I don't disagree with that characterization of individuals who want to take advantage of people in vulnerable situations. The issue in this media report, which I'm raising here, is that the Government of Canada has a program and invests millions of dollars—it's $1 million for CSIS and $9 million for the RCMP, if I remember correctly, but I could be mistaken—for them to operate abroad to deal with those unscrupulous individuals in regions where you're dealing with equally, if not more, unscrupulous regimes in those particular countries.
An individual in the Prime Minister's Office, or who at any rate advises the Prime Minister on this program, has gone to these places to thank these regimes on behalf of Canada.
At what cost do we ensure the integrity of the border? In other words, it's not only a responsibility to ensure the integrity of the border and take on these unscrupulous individuals, but also to ensure that we're not, pardon the expression, getting into bed with some pretty problematic individuals abroad, if I may say so diplomatically, as the report outlines, which, again, I would invite colleagues to read, and would be more than happy to provide to members of the committee who haven't seen it.
Liberal
Bill Blair Liberal Scarborough Southwest, ON
Yes, sir. I will simply acknowledge, because I don't have particular insight into—and colleagues, if any of you do, I wish you'd jump in.... We deal with transnational organized crime, including the exploitation of vulnerable people, in human trafficking, and with those who would be involved in exploiting those fleeing persecution. It is necessary for our federal officials and our security establishment to extend their work beyond our borders in order.... Some of the most effective work they do in preventing problems and crimes in Canada is by preventing it from coming to our borders in the first place. They are working in some very difficult places in the world, but we expect they would continue to uphold Canadian law and Canadian standards.
NDP
Matthew Dubé NDP Beloeil—Chambly, QC
I don't have much time left.
Mr. Vigneault or Mr. Brennan, do you want to talk about your organization's perspective?
Director, Canadian Security Intelligence Service
Yes. Thank you, Mr. Dubé.
Thank you, Minister.
I would just add, Monsieur Dubé, that the program you referred to has been in place for a number of years now to prevent, as the minister mentioned and as you referred to in your prelude, traffickers from bringing people to Canada irregularly. The reason we are engaged is to protect the integrity of the system in Canada and make sure that criminals...national security concerns or people are not victimized through these processes.
The work we do abroad is governed by our act and by ministerial directives. I cannot go into all the operational details, but I can say that when we do share information with foreign entities, we are under ministerial directives to make sure that the information does not lead to a human rights violation or to mistreatment. I'm familiar with what the media was reporting on this, but I can say that there's been a review of these programs and that all agencies involved are covered by this ministerial directive. So there's another perspective as well to that story.
Liberal
Liberal
Ruby Sahota Liberal Brampton North, ON
Thank you.
Thank you, Minister Blair, for being here today.
I want to start with the agreements you were speaking of earlier with the different provinces in relation to the funding in terms of gangs and guns. Can you tell me a little bit about how much funding is being provided from the federal level to specifically the Doug Ford government in Ontario?
Liberal
Bill Blair Liberal Scarborough Southwest, ON
Approximately $214 million has been identified in the guns and gangs funding for the entire country. That's in addition to the money that's been allocated, some $89 million, for CBSA and RCMP. Of the $214 million, $65 million is allocated to the Province of Ontario. There have been ongoing discussions with the Province of Ontario on how that money will flow to them and what they will do with it. I recently made a joint announcement with the Minister of Community Safety and the Attorney General for Ontario where they accepted $11 million over the first two years of this funding program. I'm not yet aware of whether they've made announcements as to how they intend to allocate that, but it's a total funding allocation over a five-year period of $65 million. So far the Province of Ontario has received $11 million of that.
Liberal
Ruby Sahota Liberal Brampton North, ON
Why is it only $11 million at this point? Who makes that choice, and how was that decided?
Liberal
Bill Blair Liberal Scarborough Southwest, ON
It's part of the ongoing discussions between us. That was all they were prepared to identify various initiatives for. The money remains there for allocation to the Province of Ontario when they're ready to use it. They've identified so far, just in the first two years of the program, $11 million in initiatives that they're prepared to undertake with that money.
Liberal
Ruby Sahota Liberal Brampton North, ON
Are you telling me there's $65 million available to Ontario? I know that my counterparts in the City of Brampton have been taking a keen interest in wanting to reduce crime in the city. However, they've only accepted $11 million of the $65 million that's been offered.
Liberal
Bill Blair Liberal Scarborough Southwest, ON
In fairness, these are ongoing discussions between our government and all the provinces. We've been working out funding allocations for each of the provinces, and so far that has been identified. This money is for municipal and indigenous police services across the provinces and territories but it is appropriately and necessarily allocated through the provincial governments. I would simply encourage all municipalities to reach out to their respective provincial government for discussions on how they might access the money that's coming from the federal government through the provincial governments.
Liberal
Ruby Sahota Liberal Brampton North, ON
Is there any way to provide the money directly to the municipal governments? I know that my city, Brampton, is very eager to be able to get access to some of these funds to help them with some of the problems they're dealing with. Is the only way to get access to this money to go through the province?
Liberal
Bill Blair Liberal Scarborough Southwest, ON
I think it is incumbent upon us to do our very best to work with our provincial partners across the country. I will tell you that in my experience in some other jurisdictions, it's been a very positive experience. I remain hopeful about those allocations in Ontario. I have a strong interest in that place myself. I know the municipalities and policing agencies that are involved. Again, with those decisions, I think the appropriate way....
Policing is administered and overseen by the provincial governments across Canada. We are working with community safety ministers, public safety ministers and attorneys general across the country in each of the provinces and territories. We've certainly done our best. There are some other funding opportunities available that are done directly. That's more with community organizations. There have been a number of significant announcements in Ontario, in addition to the money I've already referenced, where we're supporting community organizations, various crime prevention initiatives and other types of investments in communities.
Liberal
Ruby Sahota Liberal Brampton North, ON
When you compare the $65 million offer to past allocated amounts, is this more or less than what the Government of Canada has provided provinces, or Ontario specifically?
Liberal
Bill Blair Liberal Scarborough Southwest, ON
I'm not aware of funding of this magnitude previously. I've been involved in a different capacity in dealing with guns and gangs issues. Generally our relationship was with only the provincial government. There was actually some funding made available in 2008 for what was called the police officers recruitment fund, but that money was terminated in 2013.
