Public Safety Committee on June 3rd, 2019

[Ralph Goodale, Liberal, Regina—Wascana, SK]

I'm trying to recite the budget speech.

There are four particular areas in which we will be investing to support new legislation that will require certain standards of these critical sectors and create the enforcement mechanisms to make sure those standards are met. It is so vital, Mr. Picard, that our critical cyber-systems protect themselves and employ all the procedures that are necessary to keep themselves safe and secure. We are creating the legislative framework to make sure that happens, with the right kind of enforcement mechanisms backing it up and the funding, of which the $1.8 million is just the very first small tranche. We'll make sure that these systems are indeed safe and secure with the right enforcement to enforce the requirements.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Thank you, Minister Goodale, for that lengthy response.

Mr. Paul-Hus, go ahead for seven minutes.

[Pierre Paul-Hus, Conservative, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Good afternoon, Minister Goodale and everyone who has joined us.

Minister Goodale, my question concerns several of your agencies. It relates to the information broadcast by the Quebec media, particularly TVA, regarding the Mexican drug cartels doing business in Canada. This morning, I met with His Excellency Mr. Camacho, the Mexican ambassador to Canada. We discussed the situation.

I know that you were already asked about this during the oral question period, and you responded that the information was false. I want to find out what you know and what's really being done in Canada to deal with the Mexican cartels. Canada does business with Mexico, one of its largest partners and a friend. We're not focusing on Mexico here, but on the people who come to Canada with a Mexican passport to work for the Mexican drug cartels. We want to deal with these people. How are we dealing with them?

[Ralph Goodale, Liberal, Regina—Wascana, SK]

I appreciate the question, Monsieur Paul-Hus. It is important to get accurate information in the public domain. The figures that you have referred to in certain media outlets are figures that have been very perplexing to CBSA because they have not been able to verify where that arithmetic came from. Mr. Ossowski may well want to comment on this, because over the last number of days he has had his officials in CBSA scouring the records to see where this arithmetic originates, and it simply cannot be verified.

What I can tell you is that CBSA has determined that the number of inadmissibility cases for all types of criminality by Mexican foreign nationals during the period of the last 18 months, from January 2018 until now, is 238. Of these 238, only 27 were reported to be inadmissible due to links to known organized criminality, three of which were for suspected links to cartels.

The real numbers are substantially lower than the numbers that have been referred to in the media. All 27 of those people who were reported to be inadmissible due to links to organized criminality have been removed from Canada. They are no longer in the country.

[Pierre Paul-Hus, Conservative, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

Thank you for your response, Minister Goodale.

The fact remains that one individual has been clearly identified. Why was this person, whom Mexico has identified as a criminal, able to cross our border? Don't the two countries share information on everyone arriving in Canada? Since Mexico has identified this person as a criminal, isn't that information entered in a database? What process does CBSA follow?

[Ralph Goodale, Liberal, Regina—Wascana, SK]

All of the proper checks in terms of identity, records, background immigration issues and criminality have been done thoroughly by CBSA at the border.

Mr. Ossowski, can you comment on the specific individual that Mr. Paul-Hus is referring to?

[John Ossowski, President, Canada Border Services Agency]

Thank you.

I would just say that, in the first instance, I think it's important to understand the layers of security. We work in airports and with Mexican officials in Mexico to, first, try to prevent people from even getting on flights to Canada if they don't have the proper documentation or if there are any concerns in terms of misrepresentation or criminality. That being said, if they do arrive and there are concerns, our officers are very well trained to deal with those upon arrival. They could be allowed to leave at that point, if they stay at the airport until the next flight and then go home. If they do come in and we suspect that there is some work that we need to do, we will check in secondary inspection for any criminality.

During that same reporting period, I can say that we found 18 people who had used fraudulent travel documents and whom we were able to prevent from entering. There are layers of security.

With respect to that specific individual, he has been removed from the country.

[Pierre Paul-Hus, Conservative, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

I understand that you can have this information in advance since I know that there are officers in Mexico and agreements with that country. Thousands of Mexicans come to Canada. Aren't there adequate computer mechanisms in CBSA's systems? Isn't passport data available, especially for convicted criminals? Isn't there an exchange of information on these criminals, a bit like Interpol?

[John Ossowski]

I think it's important to understand the differences. With Mexico, visas are not required in order to come to Canada. We lifted the visa requirement a couple of years ago. They travel now on what's called the electronic travel authorization program. That's a lighter touch in terms of criminality.

As I mentioned, if they arrive and there are some concerns or some indicators, we do those criminal checks at the port of entry upon their arrival.

[Pierre Paul-Hus, Conservative, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

Thank you.

Minister Goodale, on May 10, a fuel tanker collided with an aircraft at Pearson airport. The Globe and Mail informed us that the vehicle had made three attempts to crash into the plane. Peel police are conducting the investigation. However, the situation is very suspicious and the incident could constitute a deliberate attack. Do you have more information on the matter?

[Ralph Goodale, Liberal, Regina—Wascana, SK]

There's no information that I'm in a position to share at this time, Mr. Paul-Hus, with respect to that particular incident. I would, however, undertake to see if there is some further detail that I can share with you, as a colleague in the House of Commons. I will inquire and determine what information can be put into the public domain.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Thank you for that, Mr. Paul-Hus and Minister.

Mr. Dubé, go ahead for seven minutes, please.

[Matthew Dubé, NDP, Beloeil—Chambly, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I want to thank all the witnesses for joining us today.

Minister Goodale, we met with David McGuinty when he presented the first annual report of the National Security and Intelligence Committee of Parliamentarians. I forget the exact part of the report and please forgive me, but the report stated that the amounts spent on national security couldn't be disclosed.

Nevertheless, the report provided the amounts and the division of the amounts for Australia. When I pointed out this contradiction to Mr. McGuinty, he confirmed that the committee members had raised the issue with the officials giving the presentation. However, the committee members were told that it was a matter of national security and that the information couldn't be disclosed.

I was wondering whether you could clarify why Australia, an ally and member of the Five Eyes, feels that its expenses can be disclosed, but not Canada.

[Ralph Goodale, Liberal, Regina—Wascana, SK]

Our concern, Monsieur Dubé, is with providing information in the public domain that could, in fact, reveal sensitive and very critical operational details of the RCMP, CSIS or CBSA in a way that would compromise their ability to keep Canadians safe.

The information can be shared in the context of the National Security and Intelligence Committee of Parliamentarians. It would also be available to the new national security and intelligence review agency, which will be created under Bill C-59. Those are classified environments in which members of Parliament around the table have the appropriate clearance level. It's more difficult to share that information here.

[Matthew Dubé, NDP, Beloeil—Chambly, QC]

I understand that the information is classified and that certain limits must be imposed. I don't want to go on about this issue too much, because I have questions regarding other topics. However, as I said, Australians disclose this information, as stated in the report.

Mr. McGuinty told us that the National Security and Intelligence Committee of Parliamentarians hadn't received an adequate response regarding this matter. Why is there a difference between Canada and Australia? I understand the applicable mechanisms. However, your reasoning seems to contradict the reasoning of the Australians.

[Ralph Goodale, Liberal, Regina—Wascana, SK]

Well, far be it from me to be critical of the Australians, but we have our own Canadian logic, and our obligation here is to protect the public safety and national security of Canadians.

Monsieur Dubé, I would simply encourage Mr. McGuinty and the National Security and Intelligence Committee of Parliamentarians to pursue this issue with the various security agencies, which they have the authority to do under the legislation, to secure the information that they believe they need. I would encourage the agencies to be forthcoming—

[Matthew Dubé, NDP, Beloeil—Chambly, QC]

Minister, I'm going to have to interrupt you, because my time is limited and this is probably the only round I'll get to ask you questions.

I just want to say that I do think it's an important thing to raise, because on expenditures there's a particular role for all parliamentarians to play beyond just the committee with clearance, where it can pertain more to operational details. Money is a whole different game, as Monsieur Picard was alluding to in his questions about the role that even we can play as those around this table at this committee.

On that note, I do want to move on to CBSA and the CRCC. We know that Bill C-98 is before the House. I'm wondering if you can clarify. There's $500,000 for CBSA and there's $420,000 for CRCC. I have two questions about that.

One, is that all the money that's going to come out of the Bill C-98 mechanism, or is there more money following that to implement those measures? Two, what explains that discrepancy? If it's $500,000 for CBSA, are they doing the work internally for review and oversight, or is that going to be sent off back to CRCC once Bill C-98 has become law?

[Ralph Goodale, Liberal, Regina—Wascana, SK]

Again, the numbers that are in this set of estimates are the initial snapshot, a one-year slice, of the beginning of a process. This is a very significant process. Where the CRCC has previously, as you know, totally focused on the RCMP, we will now be broadening the agency. It will continue its review function with respect to the RCMP, but it will also assume responsibility for the review function with respect to CBSA.

The expectation is that for any complaint the public has with respect to officer behaviour or a particular situation that developed at the border, or some other topic such as the handling of detention, for example, a complaint could be filed with this new expanded body, and they would have the complete jurisdiction to investigate that complaint from the public.

[Matthew Dubé, NDP, Beloeil—Chambly, QC]

Well, with all due respect, it's better late than never, and I certainly hope it has time to pass before Parliament rises.

[Ralph Goodale, Liberal, Regina—Wascana, SK]

So do I, Mr. Dubé.

[Matthew Dubé, NDP, Beloeil—Chambly, QC]

My last question is on vote 15, which talks about “economic-based national security threats” as part of CSIS's mandate. What is an economic-based national security threat in the context of what you're allowed to tell us here today?

[Ralph Goodale, Liberal, Regina—Wascana, SK]

Well, I could give my layman's explanation of that.

David, would you like to provide the official definition?

[David Vigneault]

Yes. Thank you, Minister.

Thank you, Mr. Dubé.

Essentially, this is related to overall foreign investment into the country when we're looking at a different country's different state-owned enterprises, different entities, trying to invest in greenfield investment here in Canada.

It's the ability for the service to contribute to the efforts of the national security community to assess if there are any national security links to these transactions. Sometimes it's because of ownership. Sometimes it's because of the nature of the technology that might be acquired. It's our overall ability to investigate and produce the right analysis to support the decision-making of Public Safety, other agencies and ultimately the cabinet, under the Investment Canada Act.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Thank you, Mr. Dubé.

Mr. Spengemann, please, for seven minutes.

[Sven Spengemann, Liberal, Mississauga—Lakeshore, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Minister Goodale, we're coming up on the end of the parliamentary term. I just want to take a moment to thank you and your senior team, on behalf of the people of Mississauga—Lakeshore, the riding I represent, for your work and through you, the women and men, the members of our civil service, who do this incredibly important work in public safety and national security day by day.

A couple of days ago I had an opportunity to meet with a group of amazing grades 7 and 8 students at Olive Grove School, which is an Islamic school in my riding. It was part of CIVIX Canada's Rep Day, which is a day to bring elected representatives into the classroom.

There was a great discussion. One of the points we discussed was violent crime, and specifically gun violence. I know Minister Blair will be with us later on. We straw polled the students on the issues that are of importance, and when it came to gun violence and violent crime, almost every hand went up among grades 7s and 8s.

We have a $2-million commitment towards a program to protect community gathering places from hate-motivated crimes, but we also have the Canada Centre for Community Engagement and Prevention of Violence. What are we doing at the moment with respect to addressing the root causes of violent crime, and also to make sure there is a level of security for grades 7 and 8 students who belong to a faith-based school so that they feel safe when they study in their community and in their centre of learning?