Evidence of meeting #19 for Public Safety and National Security in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was offenders.
A recording is available from Parliament.
12:35 p.m.
Liberal
12:35 p.m.
NDP
Matthew Dubé NDP Beloeil—Chambly, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
I would like to come back to segregation.
You mentioned a clear objective that could be achieved through legislation, which is establishing a maximum number of consecutive days when this measure is used.
Some of the recommendations made, particularly from the inquiry into Ashley Smith's death, do not necessarily provide a legal solution. We're talking about a lack of resources and the fact that some mental health treatment can't be given in prison, despite the best intentions.
If legislation was created to set a maximum number of consecutive days in segregation, in your experience, should anything else be included in a bill like that to properly frame the use of segregation so that we don't come back to it every time there is a tragedy like the Ashley Smith case?
12:35 p.m.
Correctional Investigator of Canada, Office of the Correctional Investigator
In terms of the nuts and bolts, let me share with you some of the things the Correctional Service of Canada has already identified, including adding mental health professionals as permanent members of institutional segregation review boards and having offenders with mental health disorders who have been designated as high-, acute-, or intermediate-care cases engage with an advocate to assist them in the hearing process during their segregation reviews.
Also identified is an obligation for an added executive regional review of all cases of inmates with mental health disorders who have been designated as acute or high need but who are still placed in segregation. The focus there would be to search for practical alternatives to continued segregation placement. As well, another one that was identified is adding a new step in the segregation review process to provide for an external review of all cases of offenders with mental health disorders before they are placed or subsequently placed in segregation a second time.
The Correctional Service of Canada has already identified a number of these things. What's curious to me, as I was saying in my previous answer, is that even going back to 2008, it wasn't the first time that many of these issues were raised. They've been raised and raised again, and the responses have always been, “Yes, we're getting to it.”
12:35 p.m.
Correctional Investigator of Canada, Office of the Correctional Investigator
As I say, it's a very slow, incremental, frustrating pace of change.
12:35 p.m.
NDP
Matthew Dubé NDP Beloeil—Chambly, QC
So there is an urgency to act, especially because this matter has been dragging on for so long.
12:35 p.m.
Correctional Investigator of Canada, Office of the Correctional Investigator
There's a certain urgency. When we looked at those 30 prison suicides over three years, we found that 14 people had died in segregation cells in those three years, so yes, there's a certain urgency.
12:35 p.m.
NDP
Matthew Dubé NDP Beloeil—Chambly, QC
Thank you.
On that same subject, I can predict that one of the arguments by some people would certainly be that these resources are costly. I think tackling the challenge of mental health has no cost. I think it is vital to do so. But on the flip side, I imagine that people could say that the perhaps abusive use of segregation also has a cost, if it can be put that way.
Have you done any studies to determine the costs associated with this almost abusive use of segregation? I don't just mean the short-term cost, but the cost on the system overall as well.
12:40 p.m.
Correctional Investigator of Canada, Office of the Correctional Investigator
I can't give you a specific cost dollar. I can tell you that the average cost of incarcerating a man in a federal penitentiary is about $108,00 or $110,000 a year. It's about twice that for a typical woman.
I can tell you that for Ashley Smith's year in custody, it cost about four times what it would cost for an average woman spending a year in a federal penitentiary. I can tell you that segregation cells, particularly segregation cells in maximum security institutions, are about the most expensive cell you can operate. The requirement for frequent rounds and checks in those segregation cells, the extent to which security staff have to pay attention, the routines in terms of requiring visits from health care staff or the warden, feeding in the cells, and so on all add expense to an otherwise already expensive system.
Minimum security custody costs less than medium. Medium security custody costs less than maximum, and segregation custody costs more than maximum, so you're looking at a huge potential for cost savings, let alone the benefits to the individuals who would no longer be housed in those forms of restricted custody.
12:40 p.m.
NDP
Matthew Dubé NDP Beloeil—Chambly, QC
Thank you.
I have one last question about this.
My colleague Murray Rankin and I are trying to get the committee to study this issue. You acknowledged that there is a certain urgency. We are seeing the consequences. You have long been making recommendations about this and no action has been taken. Is there still any interest in doing this study, or do you think that it's time to simply take action?
12:40 p.m.
Correctional Investigator of Canada, Office of the Correctional Investigator
Whenever you answer a question starting with the words “With all due respect”, you run the risk of the answer not being taken in the spirit in which it's being offered, so I'll avoid saying that.
However, I think there's tremendous value in parliamentarians becoming intimately aware of this issue. We're talking about the ultimate deprivation of liberty, the state controlling somebody as much as they can be controlled. I think that it's incumbent upon parliamentarians to understand that in the best way possible.
However, I'll also say that there have been lots of studies. There's lots of expert opinion out there. There are lots of examples around the world. You don't have to go far. You can go to many U.S. jurisdictions and look at segregation reform. You can go to many European jurisdictions and look at segregation reform. You can look at what the UN does. You can look at what the European Union has done. You can look at the work the Correctional Service of Canada itself has done. Many of the answers, many of the solutions, already exist, so if there were to be another study, I'd say it would be about gathering up the best of the best and acting on it.
12:40 p.m.
Liberal
Marco Mendicino Liberal Eglinton—Lawrence, ON
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
I'd like to pick up on my last question, regarding the potential reasons some inmates may have been waiving their right to parole hearings. I was about to ask you whether or not that had something to do with their lack of desire or inability to complete programs, because the ability to complete programs could very.... One would think logically or intuitively that if you completed a program, that would increase your chances of early release or statutory release. Could you just elaborate on that for a moment?
12:40 p.m.
Correctional Investigator of Canada, Office of the Correctional Investigator
Madam Kingsley will give you a good answer to that question. I'll just say something first.
Some inmates will choose not to engage in the correctional plan for a variety of reasons. They are rare, so we should never be misled by the suggestion that it's recalcitrant inmate offenders who just don't want to do it.
12:40 p.m.
Correctional Investigator of Canada, Office of the Correctional Investigator
Right, and I know that's not what you were saying. I acknowledge that, but we do hear it, the idea that the inmates don't want the programs. That happens occasionally, but it's rare.
For the more thoughtful and appropriate answer, I'll ask Marie-France.
12:40 p.m.
Director of Investigations, Office of the Correctional Investigator
Thank you for the confidence you place in me.
Mr. Sapers mentioned some of the reasons that an inmate may not be able to complete some of his or her programs. Other reasons may be, as we've heard, really long wait-lists. In another case, if an inmate who has started a program gets transferred to another institution, they may be unable to complete the program because that same program is not being offered in the new institution. Not every institution offers the same programs.
Also, in penitentiaries that are geographically far away, it may be hard to recruit people who offer programs. You may be able to recruit people who offer programs, but not in both official languages, and as we know, you can be in any penitentiary. You can be minority language in Quebec or outside Quebec, so those are obstacles as well.
12:45 p.m.
Liberal
12:45 p.m.
Director of Investigations, Office of the Correctional Investigator
12:45 p.m.
Liberal
Marco Mendicino Liberal Eglinton—Lawrence, ON
It may be that some of these programs are not speaking to the inmates, if I could put it that way, either because of language or perhaps because of a cultural barrier. Do you feel there is room to revisit some of the ethnocultural programming within the Correctional Service environment?
12:45 p.m.
Director of Investigations, Office of the Correctional Investigator
We did carry out a systemic investigation of black offenders in Canadian penitentiaries and what came out of that was that yes, there is a need for more culturally adapted ethnocultural programs.
12:45 p.m.
Liberal
Marco Mendicino Liberal Eglinton—Lawrence, ON
Okay, so we know you have concluded there is a need. Can you give me a few specific examples, maybe just two, that could be integrated into this type of program to speak to certain segments within the inmate population?
