Evidence of meeting #26 for Public Safety and National Security in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was evidence.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Conservative
Bernard Généreux Conservative Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, QC
The person is asked to blow into some kind of device.
Privacy Commissioner of Canada, Office of the Privacy Commissioner of Canada
That's correct. So it's not very invasive physically, but the fact of being subject to it—of having to comply when there is no suspicion that one has broken the law—is invasive in and of itself. It's easy to imagine more invasive things, but the procedure in question is invasive in nature.
If you can give me two seconds, I'd like to answer your question about possible improvements. Several countries, particularly in Europe, have adopted measures requiring people to provide breath samples even in the absence of suspicion. However, these European programs are subject to a range of conditions, which vary by country. I haven't done a study of the systems in question, but I know that the conditions precedent to the application of the concept differ by country. That's why I strongly encourage you to hear from people about this question, or to study it to see what a reasonable approach would be.
Conservative
Bernard Généreux Conservative Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, QC
When you refer to conditions, do you mean the way the sample is taken?
Privacy Commissioner of Canada, Office of the Privacy Commissioner of Canada
No, I mean the conditions precedent, which must be met in order for a state authority to be able to require the sample to be given, regardless of the technique for obtaining it.
Conservative
Privacy Commissioner of Canada, Office of the Privacy Commissioner of Canada
Speaking practically, a judgment from the United States, which is a bit dated, states that there should be a legal framework of rules for things like obtaining approval for the conditions precedent.
This ties in with what Ms. Ouimet said when she referred to mandatory testing in specific police actions. So it would not really be random; it would be mandatory, but under conditions approved in advance—by a higher police authority, for example, as opposed to an officer in the field. Ideally, the approval would be given based on evidence that links the demand to circumstances where a certain incidence of impaired driving has been observed. So it would have to be tied to, say, statistical evidence.
The new Criminal Code provision, as currently presented, speaks of random testing, and could go as far as giving an officer complete discretion. I don't think that's ideal. So I recommend that you consider specifying conditions, or a framework, that would tie the requirement to scientific evidence, based on European models, or on that court decision from the United States.
Liberal
NDP
Matthew Dubé NDP Beloeil—Chambly, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
I thank the witnesses for being with us today.
Mr. Therrien, I'd like to address the new subsection 320.37(2) proposed in Bill C-226. It's about the sharing of information for the enforcement of any federal or provincial act.
Making assumptions, especially in the kind of work you do, is probably never very appropriate. Nonetheless, perhaps you have an idea that would help us better understand why the provision is there. Does it truly serve a purpose?
Privacy Commissioner of Canada, Office of the Privacy Commissioner of Canada
We don't understand the reason for it; we can't tell why it's there. Perhaps you could ask the bill's sponsor to explain it, but, no, I have no explanation for it.
Matthew Dubé NDP Beloeil—Chambly, QC
Thank you.
It refers to evaluations, physical coordination tests, and analyses of bodily substances. I'm not a lawyer, so I'm not sure what might be meant by "evaluations". Could an oral statement be included in this provision?
Privacy Commissioner of Canada, Office of the Privacy Commissioner of Canada
Possibly, to the extent that the way the person responds, and their vocal rhythm, are helpful in assessing a person's alcohol level.
NDP
Matthew Dubé NDP Beloeil—Chambly, QC
Great. Thank you.
In Quebec and Ontario, the most isolated regions are served by the provincial police. In other provinces, it's the RCMP that does the work.
When you analyzed the way this bill addresses information sharing, did you notice potential problems tied to the different geographic areas, owing to the fact that in most provinces, the RCMP is the police force, whereas in Ontario and Quebec, especially in rural areas, it's the provincial police?
Privacy Commissioner of Canada, Office of the Privacy Commissioner of Canada
We didn't note any specific problems. What we're saying about the sharing of analysis results is that, given how serious the problem of drunk driving is, taking mandatory samples from people who are not suspected of drunk driving could well be justified. The social problem of drunk driving is a major one.
If the test results are used for another regulatory purpose that is much less pressing, such as obtaining a fishing licence, it no longer works. There's no longer a connection between compliance with a legal obligation for an important state purpose, and the ultimate use in that example—that is, a fishing licence issue.
NDP
Matthew Dubé NDP Beloeil—Chambly, QC
I understand. Thank you.
Dr. Brown, Dr. Ouimet, I have a question for you.
We discussed resources. We began a conversation about technological questions. We spoke about behaviour and risk aversion. Often, the possibility, or probability, of getting caught by the authorities is what motivates behaviour. I spoke about this with the earlier witnesses, and they seemed to confirm that this is what the studies usually said. Even if our alcohol level is high, and we know it, our attitude will not necessarily change. Ultimately, even though we know we shouldn't be driving, it's the fact that we know we could be arrested that will change our attitude.
You both mentioned this briefly, but I'd like to hear you speak at greater length about the resources allocated to media campaigns and education. The preceding witness told us that, in other places that apply similar rules and conduct random testing, there was, for example, an awareness campaign in parallel. In my view, one would have to do even more if the goal is to eradicate this scourge altogether. Doing more prevention would be better than simply looking after the consequences.
What do you think? I'd like to hear your opinions on that.
Assistant Professor, Department of Psychiatry, McGill University, As an Individual
From my point of view, the idea is not to catch people; it's to prevent the behaviour.
By raising the probability, or at least the perception among drivers that they are likely to be stopped, and if they have been drinking excessively, they will be arrested and convicted, is extremely important. That perception is something that has been served well by public information campaigns, even alerting people that there will be a barrage here and there.
It's not to catch people; it's to prevent the behaviour from occurring. As you mentioned, one way is to increase the sense that the probability of being arrested under the effect of alcohol is high.
Associate Professor, Faculty of Medicine and Health Sciences, Université de Sherbrooke, As an Individual
I would say that it's absolutely necessary to do both together, and that the results can be seen.
Roadblocks are effective, but very often, the strategy needs to be complemented by publicity. That's why I think more time—9 to 12 months—is needed for implementation. People have to be made aware. There needs to be publicity, and the people need to be informed.
We also need to devote the appropriate resources. If the law allows it, but the millions of tests requested in order for it to be effective are not done, the whole thing will probably not be effective. For me, education campaigns and funding for additional tests are a major concern.
NDP
Matthew Dubé NDP Beloeil—Chambly, QC
Perhaps you have the scientific knowledge to substantiate this, but ultimately, you seem to be saying that education has a bigger influence on lowering alcohol levels than any other criminal or judicial measure.
Associate Professor, Faculty of Medicine and Health Sciences, Université de Sherbrooke, As an Individual
I wouldn't go that far, but I would say that it needs to be coupled with action. Because what's the point of saying people will be stopped if they never see a roadblock, and never see anyone being stopped? Personally, I don't know anyone in my circles who has been stopped in the last five years.
Conservative
Bernard Généreux Conservative Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, QC
You do, and that person is me.
Associate Professor, Faculty of Medicine and Health Sciences, Université de Sherbrooke, As an Individual
There you go; there's someone in the room.
One out of every three people should experience a roadblock.
There is publicity, but if it's limited to that, it's pointless.
Liberal
Pam Damoff Liberal Oakville North—Burlington, ON
Thank you very much.
I want to focus on the mandatory minimums. You talked about whether you saw it as a deterrent. If people are being sent to a facility for a mandatory minimum sentence, are there resources to deal with their issues, whether it's the risky behaviour or addictions? Are we doing a good job of ensuring they're not going to reoffend when they get out?
Assistant Professor, Department of Psychiatry, McGill University, As an Individual
Under the current circumstances, I see a lot of people who have been arrested and confined or sanctioned, and I see many who recidivate. We know that anywhere from about a third to 50% of those people we catch over a certain period of time will recidivate. We suspect that's an underestimation.
I think that punishment alone is not necessarily going to be adequate.
There is a very specific narrative that I often hear clinically, and it's very disconnected from any kind of moral or rational thinking or retrospection about someone's responsibility in possibly risking the lives of themselves or others.
We conduct studies and conduct research to find novel ways to intervene on an individual basis with these people. It is very difficult. Some, simply, are alcoholic. That's rather a simple thing to deal with.
Liberal
Pam Damoff Liberal Oakville North—Burlington, ON
But if an alcoholic has a DUI, and they go to prison, is it dealt with while they're there? If you're not dealing with the alcohol addiction, then they will come out and reoffend.
