Public Safety Committee on Oct. 6th, 2016

[Michel Coulombe]

There is no distinction. We can actually fulfill our mandate, both investigate the device and threat reduction, here and abroad. Internally, the same policy applies. It's all based on risk evaluation. The risk might be higher if it is outside the country, but in terms of the management of those operations, there is no distinction.

[John Brassard, Conservative, Barrie—Innisfil, ON]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Rob Oliphant]

Thank you very much.

Monsieur Di Iorio, go ahead.

[Nicola Di Iorio, Liberal, Saint-Léonard—Saint-Michel, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you again for being with us today.

I'd like to talk to you about the radicalization phenomenon and the role of communities. It's clear that radicalization has an impact on families whose children take part in violent activities. Those families belong to a community. How can those communities prevent, detect, and combat radicalization? What role do you think they can play?

I'll give you some context. You manage large groups of people. But, surely, people who belong to the communities either directly or indirectly affected by radicalization can, on a volunteer basis or what have you, lend some support to the efforts of law enforcement officials.

[Michel Coulombe]

They play a crucial role on a number of levels. Having people who have observed signs of radicalization share that information with CSIS or police forces like the RCMP is key. That's an extremely important network for us.

The best example of that is the initiative that was put in place in Montreal to help communities and families prevent radicalization. CSIS intervenes as soon as the radicalization process is triggered and the radicalized individual poses a threat. Communities and families play a vital role from a prevention standpoint. I think Montreal's initiative is a great model.

[Nicola Di Iorio, Liberal, Saint-Léonard—Saint-Michel, QC]

What are you referring to?

[Michel Coulombe]

The Centre for the Prevention of Radicalization Leading to Violence.

[Nicola Di Iorio, Liberal, Saint-Léonard—Saint-Michel, QC]

The centre, though, is funded and employs people to do that job. That's not what I mean. I mean people from the community who take it upon themselves to intervene and support the efforts of law enforcement agencies, such as yours and Mr. Paulson's, without being paid to do so.

[Michel Coulombe]

It's all of that combined.

Ms. Beauregard could elaborate on that.

[Monik Beauregard]

I completely agree with the director of CSIS. It's absolutely crucial to work with as many stakeholders as possible, be they the communities, themselves, social partners, law enforcement, the provinces and territories, or the municipalities. It's a collective effort all over the country.

[Nicola Di Iorio, Liberal, Saint-Léonard—Saint-Michel, QC]

My apologies, but I have to stop you there. I understand the collective effort principle, but I want to get back to my point. I don't want to talk about structured groups or organizations that receive public funding, like the centre in Montreal. I want to talk about the potential role of people who are directly affected by radicalization or whose loved ones or communities are affected.

My question is for Commissioner Paulson, who, I believe, has members on his staff involved in community outreach.

[Commr Bob Paulson]

First of all, let me just endorse what the government is doing with respect to the coordination of counter-radicalization work and public safety.

As you know, the police experience, outside of counterterrorism, has been to engage with the very people you are talking about, to have crime prevention strategies, to have outreach initiatives, to inform the citizens of a given community about the risks of criminality and about prevention. We are using that, through the CACP, the RCMP, and other mechanisms, to take advantage of those outreach connections into communities to inform citizens and to alert them, particularly those who are at risk, to what they can look for and what resources are available to support them in their problems. So I agree.

[Nicola Di Iorio, Liberal, Saint-Léonard—Saint-Michel, QC]

Are there powers you don't currently have that you deem you would need?

[Commr Bob Paulson]

I think it's a very delicate area that has to be trod upon very carefully, particularly by the police, as we go into.... I talked to the FBI recently about their counter-radicalization efforts. They're very circumspect about wanting to take on the responsibility of counter-radicalization. I assert the police potential for using these pre-existing networks into communities, because in Canada, crime prevention is how we do community policing.

[Malcolm Brown]

I think there's lots of evidence that demonstrates grassroots, community-based efforts on counter-radicalization are the most effective. One of the challenges is not to design a “we're from Ottawa and we're here to help” program across the country in terms of counter-radicalization, but to build on best practices to share that the vast majority of it is grassroots, led by family members who have gone through the experiences you've just described. I think we're pushing on an open door here.

The challenge is also to recognize that counter-radicalization has limits. You have to do it. It does pay dividends, but it's not going to prevent every threat that we're going to otherwise confront.

[The Chair, Liberal, Rob Oliphant]

Thank you, Mr. Brown.

I think that, for the first time, Mr. Dubé will have the last three minutes of speaking time.

[Matthew Dubé, NDP, Beloeil—Chambly, QC]

Thank you.

I'd like to keep talking with Mr. Paulson.

I have a question about the stories that have come out in recent years regarding the RCMP's use of resources. According to those stories, the resources allocated to counterterrorism efforts meant that the force lacked the resources necessary to deal with other issues such as organized crime. Is that still the case?

This is an area where we talk a lot about legislation. Sometimes, though, the solutions are much simpler than that. Could we not just give the men and women whose job it is to keep our country safe the resources they need?

[Commr Bob Paulson]

I agree. We are looking at our resourcing levels. We continue to transfer people out of other areas into counterterrorism investigations. Our officers are underpaid in comparison to their counterparts in city police forces. It's a very difficult HR environment to continue to maintain the pace of operations that we have.

[Matthew Dubé, NDP, Beloeil—Chambly, QC]

That's good to hear. When the debate goes on about what could or could not be done in cases that are tragically behind us, I'm wondering about the weight of legislation versus resources, because I believe, as many others do, that sometimes the solution is not necessarily changing the laws, as was done under the previous government, but ensuring that police have the resources to be able to enforce existing laws.

Would you agree with that? Perhaps you could elaborate on what your experience has been.

[Commr Bob Paulson]

I would agree. My colleague at the service would agree with that. My colleague and I are running hard in the counterterrorism business, and you have to wonder at what point it's not just a temporary transfer of resources. I think I've said in the past, and I know Michel has, that it's not sustainable for the long term. We are meeting the threat, and we are managing as best we can, but there are costs for that.

As to the balance between legislation and resources, I think that's for you to decide after you've seen all the evidence.

[Matthew Dubé, NDP, Beloeil—Chambly, QC]

I have one last question.

Can you tell us which areas the RCMP has abandoned in order to focus its efforts on the fight against terrorism? What is currently being sacrificed because of the resource shortage?

[Commr Bob Paulson]

Abandon is perhaps a little too strong a word, but we've taken our investigative resources from areas of organized crime and financial integrity work. Our federal policing mandate, which is manifold, is predominantly focused on the counterterrorism threat.

[Matthew Dubé, NDP, Beloeil—Chambly, QC]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Rob Oliphant]

Thank you again for coming to our committee meeting, and no doubt we will see you again over the course of this year.

The meeting is adjourned.