Evidence of meeting #32 for Public Safety and National Security in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was you're.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Ian O'Sullivan  As an Individual
Matthew McAdam  As an Individual
James Lloyd  As an Individual
Tavis Ford  As an Individual
Tammy Rose Duncan  As an Individual
Selene Granton  As an Individual

5:55 p.m.

As an Individual

Matthew McAdam

Fair enough, but sexual harassment has lifetime effects on people. If you call someone doo-doo on Twitter, or something like that, it's totally different than sexual harassment. You would treat them completely different is what I would say to that. It deserves to be looked at in its more serious tones than political arguments, essentially, which is how I was framing my argument.

5:55 p.m.

Liberal

Pam Damoff Liberal Oakville North—Burlington, ON

Okay, thank you.

5:55 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Rob Oliphant

Thank you, Mr. McAdam.

I'm going to ask the committee to be careful that we don't get into debating with our guests who are here to present their opinions and to whom we're going to ask questions.

You did very well. You had the disadvantage of having a small crowd, so we took longer with you—

5:55 p.m.

As an Individual

Matthew McAdam

I have all night.

5:55 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Rob Oliphant

You did that well, thank you.

James Lloyd is next.

5:55 p.m.

James Lloyd As an Individual

I apologize in advance. I didn't know I was going to be speaking. I'm enormously unprepared. I just have a few notes.

I know a lot of excellent work has been done already by various organizations, a lot of stuff that can be read on the Internet. A lot of organizations, business, journalists, are opposing this legislation. It affects a lot of people, regular people too, so I feel I still have a say in this. I'd like to focus on a few key parts that I disagree with.

You talked a lot about free speech, so I'll just touch on that a bit. I'm not convinced that further taking away people's freedom of speech is going to necessarily help prevent terrorism. We already have laws around a lot of what we were discussing, and that's fine. I think there is some sort of middle ground when it comes to free speech.

The problem with this new law is the vague terminology, how vague the term “terrorism” is. There's the fact that you don't need to have any intent of creating terrorism, no action on your own part. You could inadvertently say something, something can happen, and you could be connected to that. It's very vague and a lot of the terminology, such as “in the public interest” is very arbitrary. I don't think it's worth the marginal increase to public safety.

If you are a terrorist and you know these laws exist, you're not going to be talking about your plots over text messages. You're not going to be sharing this stuff on Facebook. So which kind of terrorists are we trying to catch here? The ones who are talking about this, the dumb ones? I don't see it helping, and it's certainly creating a chilling effect on all of us.

If you think about the word “terrorism”, not the definition and how it's described in legalese, but just the word “terror”, it means fear. Fear is a way to control people, and the chilling effect is creating fear. That in itself is a kind of terrorism, a terrorism inflicted on the entire population.

The sharing of intelligence. I understand CSIS wants information and that it makes sense to share with different agencies. The more that information is shared, the less secure it will be. There are always going to be governments and institutions and private people and hackers and so on who want information. If all these institutions have access to all the information, it's going to be harder to protect, and it's more likely to be breached, and if it is breached the breach will be vaster. There are a lot of privacy and security concerns with trying to increase security in the first place. It's a bit of a catch-22.

More powers for CSIS.... I like to remind people that CSIS was created in 1984 as a result of the RCMP gaining spy powers, abusing them, and people being very mad about it. The government created CSIS so there would be two separate bodies, one for information and one for enforcement. These proposed extra powers for CSIS are undoing a lesson we should have learned by now.

No public consultation.... No one consulted the public about giving up our privacy. No one polled people about whether it was worth trading our freedoms for the illusion of security or empowering spies against us or how we would want it all to be overseen. It was rammed through Parliament in an omnibus package, typical of shady government. Ironically, Harper himself once gave a speech against omnibus bills, but I digress, as plenty of you already know that politicians sometimes lack integrity and continuity.

I have a few more things.

6 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Rob Oliphant

Do you want to make a closing statement?

6 p.m.

As an Individual

James Lloyd

I have a few things.

The appeal process for getting off the no-fly list is secret. It's very hard to mount a defence. I think there are legal problems with that.

The very tiny amount of public oversight for CSIS, a very large agency with a very small oversight committee, and they have even more powers. I think there needs to be a balance.

That's all I can say.

6 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Rob Oliphant

Thank you. You didn't sound unprepared.

Are there any questions for Mr. Lloyd?

Thank you very much.

Tavis Ford.

6 p.m.

Tavis Ford As an Individual

I, too, apologize. Thank you, first of all, for putting this on. You're outnumbering us [Inaudible—Editor].

Thank you for coming. I only heard about this yesterday, although I decided to meet the Prime Minister on this when he was coming to Calgary. I met him with the banner and asked him not to side with Harper on this one. We had a three-minute conversation, which is lovely. It felt like democracy for the first time.

I come to this as an activist in human rights. I'm an environmental activist. I've done work with Green Peace. I've gotten myself arrested up in the tar sands. I come at this as someone who follows human rights and upholds them, and advocates for them wherever possible.

My arguments are usually emotional arguments, and I can't debate the pieces of the legislation because I have not seen all the legislation, which itself is interesting. If a citizen who is as engaged as I am in this has not seen the pieces of legislation, and yet I am subject to it, that is a curious thing indeed.

What kind of democracy are we in when this legislation which was passed by a government, the Harper government—which is not the Canadian government, apparently—which is known for its authoritarian manner in passing legislation, whether it was through omnibus bills or hurried debate.... This legislation was one of those things that was not widely debated by the public, and it should have been.

Even in the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms, the idea is that if there's going to be an infringement of our charter rights, it will be the least possible infringement.

Here in Calgary I took part in Occupy.... Hello, I'm an activist. One of the things that shortened our free speech, our act of civil disobedience, as it were, was the idea that we should keep off the grass. We had a talk about this in Calgary. Some people from the law society and so on had a talk about what it is to keep off the grass while maintaining your free speech. The city used this smallest law to infringe on our charter rights. Perhaps we need to leave our encampments for various reasons. I don't want to get into that. But here they infringe on the Charter of Rights and Freedoms for the slightest misdemeanour.

There are people all over the world fighting for their rights, fighting for the basic rights that we now take for granted. We certainly do, and the parliamentarians who passed this bill take them for granted, or perhaps they don't. Perhaps they understood full well what this bill meant.

We use ISIS and ISIL right now. We talk about them. They are the bogeyman. By the way, look up what bogeymen are. They're actually indigenous Indonesians who were opposing English rule, which is curious.

What happens when we have a government in power that isn't so benevolent, that doesn't have a prime minister with fantastic hair and a good rapport with everybody? What happens when terrorism becomes stopping a pipeline because you have a moral imperative to act for the future, to preserve an environment for future generations?

Let's say that we're polluting a source of water here with sewage, and somebody decides that it's more important now to break the minor law in order to uphold the greater law. That, under this legislation, can be considered an act of terrorism, and the RCMP and CSIS can investigate us. They can monitor us. They can tap us, and they can arrest us pre-emptively, without a warrant for an act of civil disobedience.

This applies to indigenous rights, the indigenous people of this country upholding their rights. This applies there. I would say that this legislation was in fact implemented in a finicky manner to pre-empt and co-opt, subvert, that kind of activity. It's to prevent civil disobedience and disagreement with the state.

Chris Hedges said.... Now I've lost it. Oh, here it is.

6:05 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Rob Oliphant

You have five minutes.

6:05 p.m.

As an Individual

Tavis Ford

Chris Hedges said:

There will, if this law is not blocked, be no checks left on state power. State Security will operate outside the law. Citizens will be convicted on secret evidence in secret courts. Citizens will be subject to arbitrary searches and arrests. Due process will be eradicated. Internal security organs will serve as judge, jury and executioner. The outward forms of democratic participation -- voting, competing political parties, judicial oversight and legislation -- will remain, but become meaningless forms of political theater. Once the security services become omnipotent those who challenge the abuses of power, those who expose the crimes carried out by government are treated as criminals. Totalitarian states always invert the moral order. The evil rule.

I'll wind up there.

Again, the least possible infringement of our rights.... When we talk about bullying online, I don't think that requires pre-emptive redress. I don't think it means giving CSIS more powers at a time when we should corral CSIS' powers. Nobody says, “We're being spied on wholesale.” Instead of controlling that and reining that in, we actually expanded that. It's absurd. Instead of reining in security services, instead of reining in our foreign activities where we are promoting foreign wars and promoting terrorism in some sense, it's a much greater argument, not to be had here, perhaps. Instead of expanding our rights and corralling the rights of the services—the police, the RCMP, CSIS, and so on—we actually expanded them. This is not the least possible infringement of our rights.

6:10 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Rob Oliphant

Thanks, Mr. Ford.

Are there any questions?

Ms. Watts.

6:10 p.m.

Conservative

Dianne Lynn Watts Conservative South Surrey—White Rock, BC

Thank you for your passionate statements.

When you talk about expanding the powers, I want to talk about NATO, our alliances with NATO, and our alliances with our allies. Are you saying that we should withdraw from all global activity, live within our borders, and have those rights and freedoms without looking outside and assisting anybody else?

6:10 p.m.

As an Individual

Tavis Ford

I'm glad you asked that. No, that's certainly expansion of this discussion. No, absolutely not. We should not just look internally, but when we go abroad, what are we sending abroad? Are we sending doctors, humanitarian aid? Does our humanitarian aid come with the golden straitjacket? Does it mean we only give you mining if you open up your markets to our businesses? In fact, that's what we do. We say, “We will give you this as long as you allow”—give me a name...Gold Inc., or whatever they're called, I forget—“access to your environment without any regulations.” That's what we do. This promotes antagonism towards Canada.

When we go into Iraq, what are we doing in Iraq? What are we doing in Syria? Did we have a debate about this publicly? No, we did not. In fact, the Canadians said in the last election and the election before that one, and the election before that one, “We don't want to go there”, and the Harper government decided we were going to go there anyway.

6:10 p.m.

Conservative

Larry Miller Conservative Bruce—Grey—Owen Sound, ON

That's not true.

6:10 p.m.

As an Individual

Tavis Ford

Is that not true?

6:10 p.m.

Conservative

Larry Miller Conservative Bruce—Grey—Owen Sound, ON

No, we're not in—

6:10 p.m.

As an Individual

Tavis Ford

Which government decided that we were going to go?

Well, anyway, we can save that for another day.

6:10 p.m.

Conservative

Dianne Lynn Watts Conservative South Surrey—White Rock, BC

We're not going to get into political....

My question was just in the context of your statement, because there are atrocities and genocides being committed all over the world. If we just shut our eyes to it and not go in to assist these people—and I'm going to speak about the Yazidi people and the young women and children who are being slaughtered—we have a moral obligation to do something to help those children, those women, and those families. It's going to take a little more than just sending over doctors.

6:10 p.m.

As an Individual

Tavis Ford

Yes, although the time to act isn't when things have gotten so far out of hand. The time for us to intervene in Syria and Iraq wasn't 15 years into a war on terrorism, which is an illegal war, but that's another issue. The time to act was before that. The time was—

6:10 p.m.

Conservative

Dianne Lynn Watts Conservative South Surrey—White Rock, BC

The government of the day didn't, though.

6:10 p.m.

As an Individual

Tavis Ford

There used to be a time when Canada was an honest middle power that punched above its weight and that sent peacekeepers, genuine peacekeepers, in blue helmets with UN mandates. In fact, we were the ones who came up with that concept. There was a time when we didn't tacitly condone torture.

6:15 p.m.

Conservative

Dianne Lynn Watts Conservative South Surrey—White Rock, BC

We still don't.

6:15 p.m.

As an Individual

Tavis Ford

In fact, the last government was going to be brought.... There were reasonable grounds for people in that government to be tried for war crimes for bringing people—