Public Safety Committee on Oct. 20th, 2016

[The Vice-Chair, NDP, Matthew Dubé]

We appreciate it.

Thank you very much.

The next speaker will be Joaquin Barbera.

After that, it will be Alexandre Popovic's turn.

[Joaquin Barbera, As an Individual]

Good evening.

Yesterday, in the metro, I saw that this meeting would be happening, so I decided, at the last minute, to come and tell you about a situation I experienced the other day, when I went to the United States. I am Canadian. When I presented my passport, the immigration officer closed the smoked glass door only halfway, which allowed me to see my name, my address, the date when I came to Canada, the place where I went to school, where I have lived—in other words, my entire private life—scroll by on the screen.

Why should my entire private life be on display in the United States?

I am not a criminal; I have no criminal record or history; I have not been mixed up in criminal activities. I have my political ideas, as everyone does.

Why should Canada supply all that information to the United States?

Does the United States supply the Canadian authorities with the names and backgrounds of its citizens? I do not think so.

I agree with most of the people who have talked about the legislation enacted after September 11, 2001. Most of those laws actually reduce our rights and freedoms. Politicians and the military see this as straightforward, but for us, we are citizens and have the right to be respected, because we pay taxes. The only thing we want is to be left alone.

Thank you very much.

[The Vice-Chair, NDP, Matthew Dubé]

Thank you for your comments.

Mr. Di Iorio wants to ask a question. However, since time is limited, we prefer to let the public speak, unless there is a very urgent question.

[Nicola Di Iorio, Liberal, Saint-Léonard—Saint-Michel, QC]

Yes, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Barbera, was that the first time you had gone to the United States?

[Joaquin Barbera]

No, I have gone there often. However, this time, I was able to discover that they had all this information on me because the gentleman did not close the door.

I have done the equivalent of three times around the planet on an airplane. When the security people see someone who travels a lot, they consider them to be a terrorist. That is what often happens to me. Every time I go to the United States, they hassle me for no reason.

[The Vice-Chair, NDP, Matthew Dubé]

Thank you very much.

We will now move on to Mr. Popovic.

Then it will be George Kaoumi.

[Alexandre Popovic, As an Individual]

My comment addresses only one point, subsection (3) of section 12.1 of the Canadian Security Intelligence Service Act. That subsection authorizes CSIS to commit all of the offences provided in the Criminal Code of Canada, except those that cause bodily harm or death, defeat or obstruct the course of justice, or violate the sexual integrity of an individual.

I want to alert the committee to the danger inherent in that section, which quite obviously opens the door to abuses by agents provocateurs. CSIS has a bad track record on that point. I would like the committee to be informed of this and to look more deeply into the following cases.

Joseph Gilles Breault, alias Youssef Mouammar, alias Abou Djihad, was a CSIS informer for some 15 years. He presented himself as a spokesperson for the Muslim community; he made death threats against Judge Jean-Louis Bruguière, an anti-terrorism expert, and made terrorist threats to use biochemical weapons to attack the Montreal metro. If you think my imagination is working overtime, consult the archives of La Presse and check the articles published in 2001.

Marc-André Boivin, an RCMP informer for 16 years, was sentenced to 15 months in prison for conspiracy to bomb Mr. Malenfant's hotels. Reference has been made to that, in fact.

Grant Bristow, whose case you may be aware of, given that he was in all the headlines and was the subject of an investigation in the House of Commons, was one of the co-founders of the Heritage Front, a white supremacist neo-Nazi group. He was a CSIS informer for many years.

[The Vice-Chair, NDP, Matthew Dubé]

You have 30 seconds left.

[Alexandre Popovic]

Some might tell me that it takes a thief to catch a thief, to which I would reply that if the Canadian government is to become what it is trying to combat, that will very obviously jeopardize the rule of law in Canada.

To conclude, I would invite the members of the committee to read the report of the McDonald Commission, in which it says, in black and white, that it is not necessary to allow the Canadian Security Intelligence Service to break the law in order to perform its duties. The threat to national security is not significant enough.

Some years ago, Jean Chrétien said that we were at greater risk of being struck by lightning than of being victims of a terrorist attack. What that means is that we have no more need of an anti-lightning law.

Thank you.

[The Vice-Chair, NDP, Matthew Dubé]

Thank you very much.

We will now hear from Mr. Kaoumi.

It will then be John Orouke's turn.

[George Kaoumi, As an Individual]

Good evening, everyone.

My name is George Kaoumi. I was a doctor in my country of origin. Here, I work in health care, but I do not practise as a doctor.

First, I completely support the law that came out of Bill C-51. I immigrated to Canada to ensure the security of my family and my children. I have now been here for 11 years, and I think our security is in jeopardy, as is the case everywhere in the world. It is not just in Canada. Terrorism is on the rise and it is moving from the South to the North.

We need more preventive measures. That has advantages and disadvantages, as is the case for anything in the world. The advantages of the law that came out of Bill C-51 are very significant. Exaggerated stress has been placed on the disadvantages of the law, but I would like someone to give me an example where a Canadian citizen's privacy has been violated, or a citizen has filed a complaint because they were the victim of misconduct on the part of a Canadian intelligence officer. Canadian intelligence officers are credible and have our complete confidence.

[The Vice-Chair, NDP, Matthew Dubé]

I would ask that you take 30 seconds to wrap up, please.

[George Kaoumi]

Fine.

Preventive measures are very important now. That is the case everywhere in the world, not just in Canada. The public as a whole is asking that we close our borders to potential terrorists and radical Islamists.

In addition, a thorough examination has to be done of people who apply to immigrate to Canada, to find out whether they agree to and respect Canadian values.

Thank you very much.

[The Vice-Chair, NDP, Matthew Dubé]

Thank you.

We have John Orouke, then Julia Claire Bugiel.

Mr. Orouke. No? Okay.

In this case, we will hear from Julia Bugiel.

Then it will be Souhail Ftouh's turn.

[Julia Bugiel, As an Individual]

Thank you so much for letting me be here to speak.

I'd like to echo the remarks of one of the earlier speakers who said that it's a shame that many people were unable to come to the expert testimony. Students like me were able to come, but unfortunately, it was in the middle of a workday so most people were unable to attend. In the future, I would take that into consideration.

A lot of people have talked about how inaccessible the consultations were. I think given such an important matter as personal and national security, that could be amended. Sadly, I go to school five minutes from here and not one other person from McGill, one of Canada's best institutions, came to these consultations. That just shows how poor the public engagement strategy was. I know that wasn't your call, because you guys are not the ones who are responsible for that, but that definitely should be communicated. We have one of the best political science departments in the country, and yet none of my peers are here. Not one of my professors is here. They're at a different event that's happening at McGill right now. I'm sure it's very well attended.

I'd like to speak about substantive matters about the consultations, and about Bill C-51 in general.

I'm not sure what would convince you that Bill C-51 is a bad idea. I was an undergraduate when it was first introduced years ago, and my human rights prof talked about what a dangerous road it was for Canada, and how he didn't know a single academic who is in favour of this bill. Maybe it's the fact that I'm from Toronto. I have parents in the business sector. I went to John Tory's high school, one of the best schools in the country. I'm at McGill. I'm on the dean's honour list, and in a few years I'm sure I will have a CSIS record because I go to peaceful protests. I'm sure that CSIS will be a presence in my life, and I'm one of the most privileged people in this country.

I don't see a single person of colour on this panel or who's representing indigenous people, Muslims, people who face so much more scrutiny. If I am scared to voice my own opinion because of Bill C-51, I can only think of the way those people must feel and the pressures they must come under. I would also urge you to consider that.

Potentially, most of the people here don't know this, but when I sat through the two hours of expert testimony experts were often asked questions such as this: “Do you have examples of countries that provided a better example than us? We do not want to hear negative examples, only positive inspiration.” I think that's very restricting, very limiting. It gives no place for Canada to be a leader, and that is what I'm sensing from this government.

[The Vice-Chair, NDP, Matthew Dubé]

Could I ask you to wrap up, please.

[Julia Bugiel]

Of course.

I want to end with the fact that the Liberals were elected, not because we love the Liberals—I'm sorry—but they were elected because Canadians hated Stephen Harper and wanted a change.

I'm very sorry for Larry Miller. I know that's your party. I mean no disrespect.

Keeping Bill C-51 around just shows how little the Liberals want to lead and want to make real change or sunny ways. I can tell you that students are losing respect for our Prime Minister by the day. I'm going to Ottawa on Monday for a peaceful environmental protest, and that's what's going to get me a CSIS rap sheet and that is why I'm here today.

Thank you.

[The Vice-Chair, NDP, Matthew Dubé]

Thank you.

Before we go to our next speaker,

I would note that we will then hear from Hernan Moreno.

[Souhail Ftouh, As an Individual]

Hello. Thank you very much.

My name is Souhail Ftouh. I am a lawyer at a member of the Tunis bar. I left Tunisia in 2012, after the Islamists came to power. I am an advocate of secularism. I have always been opposed to an Islamist regime coming to power, even by free elections. I therefore had death threats made against me and I was forced to leave the country. I was asked to close my office, quit my job, and leave the country. That is how I ended up in Canada.

I am a lawyer, but I am also a journalist. I write for several magazines, in particular Israeli and Jewish ones. I am very close to the Israeli community, and that has again caused me a lot of problems, given that I consider Israel to be an extraordinary country. I have no sympathy for the terrorist movements of the Near East.

As an immigrant to Canada, in my first week here, I was almost murdered. In fact, from Tunis, I had called an immigration agency that had a branch here in Canada. It became apparent that the agency had been infiltrated by Islamists. In fact, I was able to discover that it was located a few hundred metres from a mosque that I will not name, located in Park Extension, one of the most dangerous mosques in North America. I was not familiar with Montreal. I paid all my fees and I arrived. The first day, I was sharing accommodation. The agency had placed me in shared accommodation with an Islamist. I had not talked to the agency about my career, my writing, or my ideas, but because my name is Arabic, they had put me in shared accommodation with a Muslim, at random. That guy was extremely dangerous. This was in 2012, before Daesh. He had connections with members of Hamas. He was collecting money in that mosque for the Hamas movement.

[The Vice-Chair, NDP, Matthew Dubé]

I would ask that you take 30 seconds to wrap up.

[Souhail Ftouh]

He was watching Al-Qaeda videos and all that. So I alerted the people at the RCMP, who told me that I absolutely had to get out of that place. However, they were not able to get into his computer, precisely because the laws prevented it.

That is why I strongly support this law, which I consider to be fairly timid. We have to model our law on the legislation of the United States, or even of Israel, because it is very effective in fighting terrorism. I congratulate Stephen Harper. He is a courageous man and we will always need men like him.

I hope that you will incorporate administrative detention for dangerous individuals into this law. We have to be able to detain them for several months, before they are tried, to allow time to make sure they do not present a security risk. We have to strengthen security, particularly when it comes to immigration agencies, because they are infiltrated to an extreme extent.

Thank you very much.

[The Vice-Chair, NDP, Matthew Dubé]

Thank you very much.

I would inform my colleagues on the committee that it is 7:29 p.m. As a rule, we finish at 7:30, but there are still three people on the list. I think my colleagues will agree that we hear them.

We ask these people to take a minute and a half, if possible.

We remind you that you can submit comments in writing. As well, there are several of us in the room who are MPs, so do not hesitate to speak with your MP, if he or she is here.

I give the floor to Hernan Moreno.

It will then be Fernand Deschamps' turn.

[Hernan Moreno, As an Individual]

I would like to speak to you about something that is extremely concrete.

We already know that there is a big problem in the world when it comes to the Islamic State. I have another approach to propose, as a witness. The main thing to do, to solve that problem, is to identify the problem properly. If the problem has not been identified properly, we will not be able to find a solution. That is what is happening when it comes to the Islamic State group.

That group is a fraud. It uses prejudices against Muslims and against a community to conceal the real actors and the real goals.

I know it is a fantastic story, but I have worked hard recently to gather evidence. In the Islamic State group, I am sure there is a person who is one of the richest people in the world and who manages a company in Silicon Valley.

I am the owner...

[The Vice-Chair, NDP, Matthew Dubé]

I am going to ask you to wrap up, please.

[Hernan Moreno]

Fine.

I have contacted the RCMP to tell them about it.

I advise you to consult the letters written by Robert Hare, a forensic psychology expert, and to listen to the testimony of Charles Kurzman, a sociology expert, who see something very strange in the radicalization phenomenon. It is very strange that a person would be radicalized and go to Syria when they were born in America. That was the case with Aaron Driver, for example. It is very strange.

I am ready to work with the authorities, with all the evidence.