Public Safety Committee on Nov. 1st, 2016

[Ralph Goodale, Liberal, Regina—Wascana, SK]

Could I add a thought here, Mr. Chair?

The committee produces a report and submits it to the Prime Minister. This subclause 21(5) obliges the Prime Minister to consult with the chair of the committee about the content of the report, specifically to identify those things that are mentioned in subclause 21(5) that would be injurious to national security. Then the Prime Minister essentially turns the issue over to the committee again.

If there's nothing in the report that is injurious to national security, then fine, done, it's all over. If there is something, there are two ways you can do it. The Prime Minister can say, well, I'm going to rewrite your report for you, or he can say, no, here's the problem: this element of information is injurious to national security, so please adjust your report to make sure that classified information—

[Dianne Lynn Watts, Conservative, South Surrey—White Rock, BC]

And I totally get that—

[The Chair, Liberal, Rob Oliphant]

I need to stop you there.

[Ralph Goodale, Liberal, Regina—Wascana, SK]

The pen stays in the hands of the committee, not the Prime Minister.

[The Chair, Liberal, Rob Oliphant]

Thank you, Minister.

Thank you, Ms. Watts.

Mr. Di Iorio, we're going to squeeze in a few more minutes.

[Nicola Di Iorio, Liberal, Saint-Léonard—Saint-Michel, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I had some questions about parliamentary immunity, the related restrictions and benefits, but I will ask those questions in another forum and in a different form.

I would also like to add my thanks for the tremendous work that has been accomplished.

My first question is for the honourable Leader of the Government in the House of Commons, Ms. Chagger

My understanding is that the committee is independent from Parliament under the bill. Under those circumstances, will Parliament be authorized to study issues similar to the ones selected for study by the committee?

[Bardish Chagger, Liberal, Waterloo, ON]

The committee—

[Nicola Di Iorio, Liberal, Saint-Léonard—Saint-Michel, QC]

The committee will be examining their own agenda. What prevents Parliament from examining the same issues?

[Bardish Chagger, Liberal, Waterloo, ON]

It's the access to information. The committee that we are proposing will have access to information unlike anyone else. That's why the seriousness of this legislation is so vast; you will have access to information that parliamentarians in general would not have access to. Not only will you have access to that information, you will have, as the minister said earlier, the right to ask for access that we've never had parliamentarians ask for before. If it's being denied, it will have to be explained as to why it's being denied. This committee will have the ability to report on that, to say it has been denied. I believe that is a substantial difference from where you're coming from and where this legislation is coming from.

[Nicola Di Iorio, Liberal, Saint-Léonard—Saint-Michel, QC]

I also have a question for the honourable Minister Goodale.

Could you tell us which are the most pressing issues that the committee should address, in your view?

[Ralph Goodale, Liberal, Regina—Wascana, SK]

With every passing day, Mr. Di Iorio, there's a new set of urgent issues that the committee could well examine. Let me provide an illustration. It's in provincial jurisdiction, so it wouldn't be directly applicable, but in the context of the controversy in the last number of days in Montreal about police activities with respect to the media, there may well be concerns among the members of this future committee about the rules, regulations, procedures, and due process that apply to those sorts of investigations. It may well be that the committee would say we need to look at that: we need to determine whether all the proper standards are being adhered to and to make sure of two things—are we being effective in keeping Canadians safe, and are we safeguarding and respecting our rights and values and freedoms in an open and democratic society?

There will be a vast array of important questions that this committee will need to turn its attention to when it's finally established. I think one of the challenges for the committee, coming right out of the gate, will be establishing its own priorities. It's critically important that the committee establish their own priorities. The act provides an authority for the government to ask the committee to look at something, but first and foremost, the committee itself needs to decide what's important. Then they conduct the investigation in whatever way they deem appropriate, in whatever order.

[Nicola Di Iorio, Liberal, Saint-Léonard—Saint-Michel, QC]

If we look at the situation that was reported in the media yesterday about the police surveillance of a journalist, there would certainly be a concurrent jurisdiction for that. You referred to the provinces, but Parliament certainly has jurisdiction over the activities and work of peace officers.

[Ralph Goodale, Liberal, Regina—Wascana, SK]

That's true, that would not fall within the purview of the—

[Nicola Di Iorio, Liberal, Saint-Léonard—Saint-Michel, QC]

Using that concrete example, can you tell us how the committee would act under those circumstances?

[Ralph Goodale, Liberal, Regina—Wascana, SK]

In that particular case, it's beyond the committee's jurisdiction, because it's at the provincial level. But if it involved the RCMP, for example, and if the issue were national security—obviously that's the ambit of the committee's focus, that it has to relate to national security and intelligence—the committee would have the authority to examine the full scope of what's going on and make a report in due course to Parliament and to Canadians if they found that there was something wrong.

[The Chair, Liberal, Rob Oliphant]

Thank you very much, Minister.

Thank you, Mr. Di Iorio.

That ends our time commitment with the ministers. We'll take a break and then continue with officials for the remainder of the hour.

[The Chair, Liberal, Rob Oliphant]

I'll call us back to order.

This truly is an august group of witnesses. Thank you all for being with us today as our committee finds out your opinions with respect to oversight, which does touch on some of you.

We'll begin our second round of questioning, again at the top, with Mr. Erskine-Smith for seven minutes.

Actually, first let's take a couple of minutes just to introduce the witnesses. I think that would be good. We know most of you, but a couple of you are new.

We will start with Mr. Coulombe.

Or no, excuse me, we'll start with Ms. Lizotte-MacPherson.

Please introduce yourself and your agency.

[Linda Lizotte-MacPherson, President, Canada Border Services Agency]

Linda Lizotte-MacPherson, Canada Border Services Agency.

[Michel Coulombe, Director, Canadian Security Intelligence Service]

Michel Coulombe, Director of the Canadian Security Intelligence Service.

[Heather Sheehy, Director of Operations, Machinery of Government, Privy Council Office]

Heather Sheehy, director of operations at the machinery of government, Privy Council Office.

[Ian McCowan]

Ian McCowan, deputy secretary to the cabinet for governance at PCO.

[Malcolm Brown, Deputy Minister, Public Safety, Department of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness]

Malcolm Brown, deputy minister of Public Safety Canada.

[Commissioner Bob Paulson, Commissioner, Royal Canadian Mounted Police]

Bob Paulson, RCMP.

[John Davies, Director General, National Security Policy, Department of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness]

John Davies, director general, national security policy, Public Safety.

[Dominic Rochon, Deputy Chief, Policy and Communications, Communications Security Establishment]

Dominic Rochon, deputy chief of policy and communications from the Communications Security Establishment.