Evidence of meeting #47 for Public Safety and National Security in the 42nd Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was number.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Conservative
Tony Clement Conservative Parry Sound—Muskoka, ON
Do you worry at all that some of the money would be going toward funding addictions?
Correctional Investigator of Canada, Office of the Correctional Investigator
No.
Correctional Investigator of Canada, Office of the Correctional Investigator
Well, the most money you can make, the top of the salary range, if we can put it that way—it's not a perfect characterization—is $6.90 a day. If you look at the contributions to inmate committee funds and the other expenses I was talking about, such as telephones, etc., you'll see that you don't have a lot of money to play with. Ten per cent of the income has to go mandatorily into your savings account; 15% has to go to the inmate welfare fund; 8% goes to paying for the telephone administration fee; 22% goes to food and accommodation costs; and then there's a 25% mandatory reimbursement if there's any outstanding debt to the crown, through victim fine surcharges and those kinds of things. It does not leave a lot of money to fuel addiction inside institutions.
Conservative
Tony Clement Conservative Parry Sound—Muskoka, ON
They're getting it from somewhere, I guess.
I guess my time is up?
NDP
Matthew Dubé NDP Beloeil—Chambly, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Mr. Sapers, I'll add my voice to those of everyone who thanks you for your work, and I wish you the best in your new role as the Ontario corrections adviser. There's certainly a lot of work to do on that front as well, but thank you.
My question is once more about the indigenous population, which is overrepresented in the prisons.
In terms of the current situation, this week, the Auditor General reported on reintegration programs specifically with the indigenous population. Do you agree with the Auditor General on this matter? Do you believe that, if your recommendation was followed, the recommendation to appoint a deputy commissioner for indigenous affairs, it could partly fill in the gaps that the Auditor General identified this week?
Correctional Investigator of Canada, Office of the Correctional Investigator
Thank you for your question.
I'll tell you that I was immensely impressed with the insight that the Auditor General's report demonstrated in the area. Many of the findings are consistent with the findings of our office. In fact, all the findings are consistent. The recommendations are sound, and I was also very impressed with the swift and positive response from the Correctional Service of Canada.
I will note, however, that much of what they say in their response represents the status quo. It does not represent moving forward, and that has been the problem. I'll give you an example.
In 2012, my office tabled, for only the second time in its history, a report called “Spirit Matters”, which was an examination into whether or not the Correctional Service of Canada had implemented the aboriginal-specific sections of the Corrections and Conditional Release Act, consistent with the will of Parliament. Our overarching conclusion was no, that it had not happened.
There is a section of that act that allows for the transfer of care and custody of indigenous sentenced offenders to indigenous communities. This is through the provision of healing lodges. It's section 81 of the legislation. When we did our investigation, there had been only six healing lodge agreements signed—only six. There were none in Canada's north, none in Atlantic Canada, none in British Columbia, and none in Ontario—none.
We made recommendations that were tabled in that special report to Parliament. Many of those recommendations were met from the Correctional Service of Canada with the acknowledgement of the problem, but it's six years later and there are still only six agreements. Not a single section 81 healing lodge bed has been added, yet the proportion of aboriginal indigenous offenders has grown dramatically in that six years.
NDP
Matthew Dubé NDP Beloeil—Chambly, QC
To come back to your recommendUation to appoint a deputy commissioner for indigenous affairs, I believe that, since I have been sitting on this committee, this is the second time that you have made it.
Has the minister shown any interest in accepting the recommendation? It seems to me to be a good start to have someone in that position who understands the sensitive issues that the indigenous population needs to have considered.
Correctional Investigator of Canada, Office of the Correctional Investigator
The minister is certainly aware of the recommendation and the importance that we attach to it and has undertaken to discuss that recommendation. I know that the Correctional Service of Canada continues to be resistant. In fact, their arguments are that it is already a file that is part of the mandate of the senior deputy commissioner and it already has senior representation around the table and, in fact, it's everybody's responsibility to properly acknowledge and implement the strategic plan for indigenous offenders. The problem with that is that it's the status quo, and it hasn't worked.
We have elders engaged throughout the correctional process. We have a national aboriginal advisory committee that's statutorily required, but what we don't have is.... One of my staff gave me an idea this morning. She asked why we don't have elders' directives instead of commissioner's directives. Why don't we change the language? Why don't we make it clear that this is about respecting indigenous culture, spirituality, and needs? Why don't we have elders' directives?
Well, if we had a deputy commissioner for indigenous corrections, perhaps that could be a function for that person: to create that opportunity, that space, and to actually bring that kind of leadership into correctional practice. The status quo isn't working.
NDP
Matthew Dubé NDP Beloeil—Chambly, QC
The other issue I want to raise is an issue that you've talked about before. I've heard—and in my case, I'll admit it was the first time—from Mothers Offering Mutual Support about ion scanners, which is something you spoke about in 2012, I believe, and before. I'm wondering about this notion of false positives and the impact it has on visits, and then consequently the impact that has on rehabilitation and reintegration. Perhaps I could hear your thoughts on that, given that for me it's something that I hadn't heard many specifics on prior to the meeting I had.
Correctional Investigator of Canada, Office of the Correctional Investigator
Yes, false positive detection is a problem, and it's a problem that's part of a much larger set of problems that has to do with maintaining family contact and support. Prisons are not welcoming environments. They're not designed to be. Prison walls are designed to keep people out as much as they're designed to keep people in.
When people come into an institution, there's risk. There's a risk that they're bringing in contraband. There's a risk that they're bringing in weapons. It can be disruptive, so there is a security component around all of this, but that security component is now at the level where it is interfering with other policy imperatives for good corrections, which includes maintaining community contact and access to the outside world and which also includes supporting family relationships.
We have things out of balance. The introduction of technology into corrections has been very rapid. It's not just false positives on ion scanners, but other kinds of technology as well, that are increasingly making corrections much more high tech and low touch, thus much reducing opportunities for human interactions—
NDP
Matthew Dubé NDP Beloeil—Chambly, QC
I don't mean to interrupt, but my time for questions is about to end.
I wanted to ask if you feel that it's appropriate, given the rapid introduction of technology, to review what's being used to minimize the false positives and actually, interestingly enough, to keep drugs out, thus completing both of those objectives?
Correctional Investigator of Canada, Office of the Correctional Investigator
I think it would be a great idea to review the technology from a number of standpoints. One is to make sure that it's an appropriate use of technology and consistent with the law. Number two is to see whether or not the cost of that technology is proportionate to the benefit it brings in, because, of course, the money spent on things like ion scanners is money that's not spent on rehabilitative programs, for example. Number three is to ensure the technology purchase isn't where it ends. Ongoing and consistent staff training, keeping apace of technology and making sure that it's properly calibrated, properly used, and that people understand how to use it, etc., is also very important.
A review that looks at those three things would be very helpful.
Liberal
Pam Damoff Liberal Oakville North—Burlington, ON
Mr. Sapers, let me join with my colleagues in thanking you for your service to Canadians in what I'm sure has oftentimes been a thankless position.
I have so many questions, I don't know where to start.
I was reminded when I spoke to the parole officers that we often don't remember that offenders will be getting out of prison at some point, and we need to think about what kind of person we're releasing. I'm trying to take a look at what you're saying in that context, that these people have committed a crime, they're in prison, but we also need to look at what kind of person we're releasing.
You highlighted the number of indigenous people in prison. At our human rights caucus recently, one of my colleagues spoke about the racism of lower expectations. I met recently with Senator Pate, and she talked about how privilege has an effect on criminal charges.
I know you're not responsible for the sentencing and for how many people are being sent to prison, but I noted in the Auditor General's report that the number of indigenous prisoners seeking parole the first time they are able to is 12%, and that's also in terms of accessing programming while in prison. Do you have any suggestions on how we can assist with that, making sure that we're giving our indigenous people the opportunity to access programming and parole?
Correctional Investigator of Canada, Office of the Correctional Investigator
Yes, and it's very complex. I know I'm supposed to give brief answers, and I'm sorry.
Access to programs and program capacity: that is an issue in general. Making sure that people get access to programs in a timely way, that the programs are, very importantly, delivered by somebody who is competent to deliver them, and that the programs are delivered at the right time in the sentence are all geared toward supervised structured release. We know that the right program interventions leading to timely release with good supervision in the community is the key to success. We know that the key to failure is not doing that.
When you now apply that knowledge to what's happening with indigenous offenders, you find some contradictions. You may have an indigenous individual who is very engaged with their culture and their identity and engaged in cultural programming. You may have another indigenous individual who isn't. The one who is will gain access to Pathways units, will be interacting with an elder. The one who isn't won't have that. So sometimes there's a barrier to programs, depending on the level of individual awareness or engagement with their indigenous heritage, and that's an issue for CSC to deal with.
We have some very good programs, and we have a great catalogue of programs, but that catalogue of programs doesn't often mirror what's actually happening in the institutions. There are all kinds of challenges involved in having the right people—
Liberal
Pam Damoff Liberal Oakville North—Burlington, ON
Have those programs changed to reflect the increasing number of indigenous people in prison?
Correctional Investigator of Canada, Office of the Correctional Investigator
I don't have a current picture of the capacity across the country. I can tell you that the programs are very much in flux for another reason. The Correctional Service of Canada has moved to what they call an integrated correctional program model. That program model presents some challenges to keeping intact the aboriginal component. It's not uniform across the country. Where there is capacity doesn't always reflect where there is need.
Liberal
Pam Damoff Liberal Oakville North—Burlington, ON
I'd like to talk a little bit about mental health. When Don Head appeared before our committee, he talked about how he didn't want our prisons to become mental health facilities. That is quite valid, except that we have so many people—26% of the men and half of the women—who have mental health issues.
I'm just wondering how we can perhaps work with our provincial counterparts to deal with some of these mental health issues before people get incarcerated. Would that lead to fewer incarcerations? As well, how can we ensure that people are getting the treatment they need while they are incarcerated? That's another loaded question.
Correctional Investigator of Canada, Office of the Correctional Investigator
Yes. Boy, those are two really big questions.
The one that's not within my mandate is the one I'll answer first, which is about the off-ramps out of the criminal justice system. When there is an accused or a suspect who clearly is dealing with mental health issues, there's a variety of strategies. There are actually some great practices across the country where, either because of police interventions or community mental health interventions, these people are provided alternatives instead of being prosecuted. The most expensive way for somebody to gain mental health services is through court, and then you often have the added stigma and burden of a criminal record on top of whatever your health issues are.
So yes, we need to do more of that. Clearly, we need to stop criminalizing behaviour that's a result of mental illness. We've increasingly done that, and the result is as you say: the statistics demonstrate what the result has been. We need more of that, more stemming the flow, and it also means that we have to be serious about bail reform, different strategies in first appearance courts, more mental health courts, and supports all the way throughout the process as well.
When somebody is sentenced and gets a federal sentence, they go into the Correctional Service of Canada. If they are profoundly mentally ill and diagnosed with a significant mental illness, they may find their way into a treatment bed in one of the treatment centres operated by the Correctional Service of Canada. Unfortunately, that capacity nowhere near meets the demand.
Liberal
Pam Damoff Liberal Oakville North—Burlington, ON
I met with the Royal Ottawa, and I understand there's only one forensic bed for women.
Correctional Investigator of Canada, Office of the Correctional Investigator
There's only one forensic bed on a contract agreement. There might be two, actually, between the Correctional Service of Canada and the Royal Ottawa group at their treatment centre, the St. Lawrence Valley treatment centre in Brockville. That's different. There is a unit for women at the Regional Psychiatric Centre operated by the Correctional Service of Canada in Saskatoon. It's the only national resource operated by Correctional Service Canada. They also have some contract beds for women at the Philippe-Pinel institute in Montreal.
Correctional Investigator of Canada, Office of the Correctional Investigator
No. The capacity is nowhere near adequate to meet the demand. In my remarks, I mentioned the Correctional Service of Canada's optimal care model. This is a new model they've imposed that they claim will better allocate mental health resources, and my worry is that it's actually going to reduce access even further.
