Evidence of meeting #47 for Public Safety and National Security in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was number.
A recording is available from Parliament.
4:35 p.m.
Liberal
Nathaniel Erskine-Smith Liberal Beaches—East York, ON
That's fair.
I mentioned this the last time you appeared before us, but a simple yes or no is fair for this question as well. On safe needle exchange in prisons, I know that there's a recent report out there in support of it. I know that when we have Insite in Vancouver for the general public, the Supreme Court says it saves lives. In your view, would a safe injection or safe clean needle exchange program in prisons save lives?
4:35 p.m.
Correctional Investigator of Canada, Office of the Correctional Investigator
Yes, I believe it would. I believe there's evidence to support that position.
4:35 p.m.
Liberal
4:35 p.m.
NDP
Matthew Dubé NDP Beloeil—Chambly, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
I am pleased to hear the answers about the decrease in wrongdoing. Mr. Sapers, I was actually going to ask you basically the same questions.
I would like to bring up the issue of mental health, and, more specifically, the mental health of women in detention. You mentioned it in May, the last time you appeared before us. If I understand correctly, there is only one federal regional psychiatric centre for women. Is that correct? How has the situation changed since May? Do you have any other comments on this issue?
4:35 p.m.
Correctional Investigator of Canada, Office of the Correctional Investigator
Correctional Service Canada currently operates five regional psychiatric centres. The one in Saskatoon is the only national resource that Correctional Service operates that has capacity for women. That capacity is now standing at 20 beds. In addition to that capacity provided and operated by Correctional Service Canada, the CSC does contract with some service providers, notably the Royal Ottawa hospital and the Philippe-Pinel institute in Montreal, for additional resources for women. That's the status today. It hasn't increased.
Pardon me, the number of beds in Saskatoon has grown from a 12-bed unit initially to now a 20-bed unit.
4:40 p.m.
NDP
Matthew Dubé NDP Beloeil—Chambly, QC
Can subcontracting pose any challenges in terms of the various rehabilitation programs, and programs of other kinds?
4:40 p.m.
Correctional Investigator of Canada, Office of the Correctional Investigator
There are a number of challenges, but there is a tremendous willingness, frankly, on the part of many health operators at the provincial level to engage in discussions about how to meet those challenges. They're often dealing with the same people. Many women who are federally incarcerated have a previous history of psychiatric hospitalization. These are patients who are well known to many of the provincial systems. Yes, there are challenges and barriers to any horizontal initiatives between governments, but that's no reason not to tackle the challenges.
4:40 p.m.
NDP
Matthew Dubé NDP Beloeil—Chambly, QC
Clearly, I agree with you on that.
In your opinion, should anything be done to improve the integration of services provided by provincial governments and by federal correctional services in order to ensure, for example, that policies are more consistent?
4:40 p.m.
Correctional Investigator of Canada, Office of the Correctional Investigator
Certainly. It depends at what point in the criminal justice process we're talking about. Talking about post-sentence only, for somebody who has received a sentence of more than two years, then you can begin your discharge planning immediately, and you can begin to prepare people for transfer to a provincial resource at the earliest safe opportunity, which means that you have to address, perhaps, conditional release policies and legislation as well so that you can make that transfer. There are a number of ways.
Do you want to...?
4:40 p.m.
Executive Director and General Counsel, Office of the Correctional Investigator
I just actually misled Mr. Sapers, and I want to correct the record.
The numbers of psychiatric beds for women went down. It was actually 20 beds prior to the reorganization, and it is down now to eight beds. So that is from 20 beds to eight beds. The money saved there was reallocated to increase the capacity for intermediate care beds from 48 up to 72.
I apologize for misleading Mr. Sapers.
4:40 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Rob Oliphant
Thank you.
We're now in our first period of overtime. I'm going to suggest that we do three five-minute sections, because it seems to take about six to do five. That will take us to five o'clock.
We'll have one round: Mr. Di Iorio, Mr. Clement, and Mr. Dubé each for five minutes, and that should take us to the end.
Go ahead, Mr. Di Iorio.
4:40 p.m.
Liberal
Nicola Di Iorio Liberal Saint-Léonard—Saint-Michel, QC
Mr. Sapers, Mr. Zinger, thank you for coming to our committee.
Mr. Sapers, in the years during which you worked in the Correctional Service of Canada, have you observed any progress?
4:40 p.m.
Correctional Investigator of Canada, Office of the Correctional Investigator
Yes, absolutely.
My role is not really to issue a pass or fail with Correctional Service Canada. We're not an inspectorate, as they say. We respond primarily to complaints and maladministration. Often what you hear from me is commentary about negative findings. I think it's also appropriate to point out that Correctional Service Canada is a highly competent organization, and the men and women who work for CSC work hard every day to deliver programs and interventions that are safe, timely, and appropriate. We've seen some progress with indigenous corrections, some progress with women's corrections, and some progress on mental health, but that progress is, in my opinion, insufficient in terms of what the challenges are.
4:40 p.m.
Liberal
Nicola Di Iorio Liberal Saint-Léonard—Saint-Michel, QC
To what do you attribute the progress you have observed?
December 1st, 2016 / 4:45 p.m.
Correctional Investigator of Canada, Office of the Correctional Investigator
Certainly, we saw a flurry of activity in the aftermath of the death of Ashley Smith, for example, when it comes to some women's corrections issues, some policy clarification around the use of segregation, and some access to mental health treatment. We've seen some other progress that has been driven by other boards of investigation and inquiries, and findings in court.
It actually troubles me that we often seen progress after a crisis. There's tremendous opportunity to be far more proactive.
4:45 p.m.
Liberal
4:45 p.m.
Correctional Investigator of Canada, Office of the Correctional Investigator
I don't want this to sound flippant at all, but it reminds me of what they say about advertising, “repetition, repetition, repetition, and colour”. It's important to very dogged in this work. The issues are big. It's a large organization. You may think you've addressed a problem because you've resolved an issue at one institution in one corner of the country, but that problem has probably been manifesting in another institution in another corner of the country, and yet you have to chase it down.
I'm very fortunate. I have a tremendously competent high-performing team in the office. It's small, but they punch way above their weight class. I hope whoever comes next recognizes that that team will depend on that person to have the same commitment to stay focused and to be vocal, and not shy away from some of the difficult discussions that we've certainly had to engage in over the last decade.
4:45 p.m.
Liberal
Nicola Di Iorio Liberal Saint-Léonard—Saint-Michel, QC
Are there any methods you have observed in provincial jails that could be helpful in the federal correctional system?
4:45 p.m.
Correctional Investigator of Canada, Office of the Correctional Investigator
It's been a long time since I have applied any kind of a critical or analytical eye to provincial jails. I've certainly spent a lot of time in provincial jails over the years. I'll be moving into that realm in the new year. At this point, I don't have any particular lessons learned from the provincial sphere that I would bring. It's not because I don't think there are any issues, it's that I'm not aware of them.
4:45 p.m.
Liberal
Nicola Di Iorio Liberal Saint-Léonard—Saint-Michel, QC
Are you aware of any projects that have been conducted in jurisdictions where the situation is similar to ours, starting in North America, that could be helpful in Canada?
4:45 p.m.
Correctional Investigator of Canada, Office of the Correctional Investigator
Absolutely. There are good practices around the world, and many south of the border. As much as we like to demonize U.S. corrections, there are some very good practices. There's the way that U.S. Federal Bureau of Prisons, for example, deals with compassionate release for elderly and ill offenders. I think we could draw lessons from that.
There are European jurisdictions that are far more advanced than we are in terms of using digital technology, computer-based technology for reintegration programs, being able to access the outside world through very highly structured and monitored Internet access for things like job searches, etc., and vocational training.
There are examples in jurisdictions, particularly Australia and New Zealand, that I think we can learn from when it comes to how we properly interact with indigenous communities.
Really, you can go around the world and pick out some good practices. I have to say that other countries come to Canada and pick out good practices here, too. It's not all bleak, but we certainly don't have all the answers here.
4:45 p.m.
Conservative
Tony Clement Conservative Parry Sound—Muskoka, ON
I'm just trying to get a handle on what we're trying to accomplish here. Would you agree with me that there are a number of different goals in our corrections system, like protection of the public, reintegration of offenders after their sentence, punishment—
4:45 p.m.
Correctional Investigator of Canada, Office of the Correctional Investigator
Sure. The principles are clearly set out in the Criminal Code and the Corrections and Conditional Release Act.
4:50 p.m.
Conservative
Tony Clement Conservative Parry Sound—Muskoka, ON
In your assessment of your role, do you take into account the more general societal goals, or do you not see that as part of your responsibility?
The Criminal Code is a moral document. It's supposed to be an expression of the morality of the nation, and when it changes, that's because of a change in the morality of the nation. Part of the goal of the Criminal Code is to punish people who have violated the mores of our culture and have hurt people in doing so. Is it your job to consider that at all?