Evidence of meeting #48 for Public Safety and National Security in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was information.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Nancy Miles  Senior Legal Counsel, Privy Council Office
Allen Sutherland  Assistant Secretary, Machinery of Government, Privy Council Office
Heather Sheehy  Director of Operations, Machinery of Government, Privy Council Office
John Davies  Director General, National Security Policy, Department of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness

4:15 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Rob Oliphant

There are a number of amendments that have been proposed, beginning with PV-8. We can take them one at a time.

There are a few issues because if PV-8 is passed, BQ-7 would be ineligible. If either of them passes, because they are amending the same line, BQ-8 would not pass.

I'm going to mention that both NDP-12 and CPC-12 are inadmissible, as they are attempting to delete clauses. The committee may defeat a clause, but may not remove a clause.

Then we'll have LIB-15 and perhaps a LIB-15.1, if it is so moved.

I'm going to begin with PV-8 which is deemed moved.

Ms. May.

4:20 p.m.

Green

Elizabeth May Green Saanich—Gulf Islands, BC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

It's nice to see you, Ruby. I feel like we should be talking about electoral reform. We're veterans, here.

This amendment very clearly attempts to turn on its head what both subclause 31(1) and subclause 31(2) accomplish. At the moment, the effect of subclause 31(1) and particularly subclause 31(2) is to make the decisions of a minister refusing to provide information pursuant to subsection 16(1) not only final insofar as government decision-making goes, but also exempt from normal review through our federal courts.

It's a very straightforward amendment. I am proposing to replace eight lines with four—economy of purpose. We would no longer have subclauses (1) and (2), and the amendment would say:

The appropriate Minister's decision to refuse to provide information under subsection 16(1) is final, except for judicial review under the Federal Courts Act.

I think the purpose is clear. You've certainly heard expert witnesses to the effect that this is the sort of area where too much.... The Federal Court can certainly handle confidential information. The decision-making by a minister of the crown can go to Federal Court, and that process can also be as secure for purposes of public security and the national interests as any other body one could imagine. It would certainly improve the decision-making under this act and the access to information that is critical to a parliamentary committee of both MPs and senators whose job is national security and intelligence. They certainly will not be able to do their job if ministers do not provide information. That should be an exception, and it should be difficult for ministers to make that decision. They should know that their exercise of discretion is open to Federal Court review on tests that have been developed through the ages.

It certainly doesn't open this process to abuse or to leaking secure information from our intelligence services, but it is a check on the inappropriate exercise of discretion by ministers.

4:20 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Rob Oliphant

Thank you, Ms. May.

While the motion is admissible, it is actually now referring to a clause that no longer exists.

4:20 p.m.

Green

Elizabeth May Green Saanich—Gulf Islands, BC

Yes, I know that, but I don't imagine that will be the case as the bill.... I know we're in a bit of a procedural lacuna here.

4:20 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Rob Oliphant

Yes.

4:20 p.m.

Green

Elizabeth May Green Saanich—Gulf Islands, BC

I don't know that this has ever happened before—the accidental removal of an entire section.

I'm in your hands, Mr. Chair. How do I amend a section that no longer exists, but will exist again in the future?

4:20 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Rob Oliphant

I am ruling that it is admissible. Because we don't know what could happen at the report stage, it is admissible to be voted on at this stage.

4:25 p.m.

Green

Elizabeth May Green Saanich—Gulf Islands, BC

Thank you.

4:25 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Rob Oliphant

CPC-12 is not—

4:25 p.m.

Conservative

Tony Clement Conservative Parry Sound—Muskoka, ON

—admissible.

4:25 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Rob Oliphant

Yes.

Is there any further discussion about PV-8? Seeing none, I'll call a vote.

(Amendment negatived)

We've moved through NDP-12, BQ-7, and CPC-12.

BQ-8 can be moved.

Would anybody like to speak to it?

Mr. Di Iorio.

December 6th, 2016 / 4:25 p.m.

Liberal

Nicola Di Iorio Liberal Saint-Léonard—Saint-Michel, QC

Mr. Chair, with respect to amendment BQ-8, it's important to point out that disagreements between the government and parliamentary committees are settled in Parliament. Disagreements between the committee specified in this bill and the government should be handled the same way, in other words, they should be settled in Parliament, rather than through legal action.

We are talking about a committee of parliamentarians. With respect to the committee's conduct and governance, despite the provision tying it to the executive branch, the fact remains that the committee is made up of parliamentarians and deals with the government, whose members are accountable to Parliament. Those debates, then, should take place within Parliament.

4:25 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Rob Oliphant

Ms. Watts, go ahead.

4:25 p.m.

Conservative

Dianne Lynn Watts Conservative South Surrey—White Rock, BC

To that point, it isn't a committee of Parliament; it is a committee of parliamentarians. I think the rules are a bit different, in terms of how things should work through. Therein lies the difference. We can't go to Parliament to fix this. It has to be embedded in the legislation.

4:25 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Rob Oliphant

The Standing Orders do not apply to this committee as they do to the standing committees of the House of Commons, or even special committees of the House of Commons. It is not a special committee, nor is it a standing committee. It is a statutory committee of parliamentarians.

4:25 p.m.

Conservative

Dianne Lynn Watts Conservative South Surrey—White Rock, BC

Right.

4:25 p.m.

Liberal

Nicola Di Iorio Liberal Saint-Léonard—Saint-Michel, QC

Mr. Chair, the committee is made up of parliamentarians. The bill we are studying clause by clause expressly sets out that the committee be made up of parliamentarians, and that carries a certain meaning. It says right in the bill that the committee's membership must be made up of members of Parliament.

Intrinsically, what that means is that those who sit on the committee come from and report to Parliament. Therefore, any discussions, debates, or differences of opinion that need to be settled should be dealt with by the institution to which those individuals are bound, in other words, Parliament.

4:25 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Rob Oliphant

I would ask the officials if they want to comment. The only thing I would say is that it is not just members of Parliament, but members of Parliament and senators. We'll have both houses represented. I am not sure if the officials want to comment on that or not.

No. Okay.

4:30 p.m.

Liberal

Nicola Di Iorio Liberal Saint-Léonard—Saint-Michel, QC

Absolutely. When I said members of Parliament, I meant members of both the House and the Senate.

4:30 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Rob Oliphant

We have BQ-8 on the floor.

(Amendment negatived [See Minutes of Proceedings])

We are moving now to LIB-15.

4:30 p.m.

Liberal

Marco Mendicino Liberal Eglinton—Lawrence, ON

Mr. Chair, I would like to move LIB-15.

Did we vote on BQ-8? Just for clarification, did we do BQ-7 and BQ-8?

4:30 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Rob Oliphant

These are done.

4:30 p.m.

Liberal

Marco Mendicino Liberal Eglinton—Lawrence, ON

LIB-15 would simply reflect amended clause 8, which was also moved by me. Liberal amendment 15 would amend clause 31 by replacing line 21 on page 11 with the following language:

review referred to in paragraph 8(1)(b) would be injurious

4:30 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Rob Oliphant

The amendment is duly moved. Are there any comments?

Ms. Watts.

4:30 p.m.

Conservative

Dianne Lynn Watts Conservative South Surrey—White Rock, BC

The amendment would be a full stop after “injurious” and all the rest deleted, correct?