Public Safety Committee on May 8th, 2017

[Ralph Goodale, Liberal, Regina—Wascana, SK]

Mr. Miller, the Canadian law on this point is very clear.

We do not have a wall that is a physical barrier to the border. When someone steps across that border in an irregular fashion, they do not get a free ticket to Canada. They are arrested. They are apprehended by the RCMP. They are fingerprinted. All of their biographical and biometric information is taken. In terms of screening, that is done against the databases we have in Canada, and also databases elsewhere around the world. Is there any immigration flag? Is there any criminal flag? Is there any terrorist issue that can be raised?

[Larry Miller, Conservative, Bruce—Grey—Owen Sound, ON]

We're all aware of that, Minister.

[Ralph Goodale, Liberal, Regina—Wascana, SK]

Your question was about screening. They are screened in every case.

[Larry Miller, Conservative, Bruce—Grey—Owen Sound, ON]

The problem is, Minister, why aren't they directed to that crossing, which you say is blocks away, and come in the normal way and get in line? There is no such thing in most people's minds, mine included, as a refugee from the United States. It's just not there. It's laughable to suggest it is, so why aren't these people, at the very minimum, told to get in the queue and what have you?

It's frustrating to Canadians, and basically we're turning out to be the laughingstock of the world for how it happens like that.

[Ralph Goodale, Liberal, Regina—Wascana, SK]

I'm not sure about the laughingstock comment. With regard to the situation at Emerson, at Lacolle, and in southern British Columbia, where there have been a few border crossings, the fact of the matter is that this has been examined very carefully with personal visits, physical visits, by the United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees, and it has commented that the behaviour of Canadians has been exemplary both in the application of Canadian law and in the implementation of Canada's international treaty obligations.

[Larry Miller, Conservative, Bruce—Grey—Owen Sound, ON]

I used the term “laughable” and said it's frustrating to people in the queue because I have been working with a young Asian family that is going through the process. They have relatives here, and they've worked with us for coming up to two years since their application went in. They're saying, “We're doing it the way we're supposed to do, yet others are getting in ahead of us.”

[Ralph Goodale, Liberal, Regina—Wascana, SK]

They are “getting in” to be arrested. They are apprehended, and then they have to make their case before the IRB. If they cannot make a justifiable claim to being asylum seekers and the IRB turns them down, they are deported.

[The Chair, Liberal, Rob Oliphant]

I'm going to need to end that questioning there.

I'll just remind the committee—I gave Mr. Miller some leeway on this—that our topic today is Bill C-23. The minister will be back with us on estimates and that will be quite a freewheeling discussion. I did give a little leeway on that. It's not on our topic, but I ask—

[Larry Miller, Conservative, Bruce—Grey—Owen Sound, ON]

What I asked was on topic, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Rob Oliphant]

I think you did your best to be on topic. I'm just giving a little notice that this is about pre-clearance. The minister will graciously be attending another meeting and we will have lots of time to talk to him about that.

We will continue now with Mr. Arseneault.

[René Arseneault, Liberal, Madawaska—Restigouche, NB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

My thanks to the minister, Mr. Bolduc, Ms. Wherrett and Ms. Watkinson.

My questions will be about part 1 of Bill C-23, which deals with preclearance by the United States in Canada and with the powers of American officers in preclearance matters.

I am well aware that clause 9 could not be clearer: Canadian law applies. Subclause 10(2) stipulates as follows:

[An American] preclearance officer is not permitted to exercise any powers of questioning or interrogation, examination, search, seizure, forfeiture, detention or arrest that are conferred under the laws of the United States.

He just can't.

I am also well aware of clause 11, which tells us that an American preclearance officer on Canadian soil must work in accordance with Canadian law, including the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms. So I know all that. I am fully aware that a Canadian preparing to travel to the United States will have all his rights as a Canadian respected in a preclearance area on Canadian soil.

With all that, let me put my lawyer's hat on. In all humility, I can say that lawyers have a talent for finding tiny irritants. I have found one in subclause 22(4). Though we know that Canadians' rights will be respected, subclause 4 of clause 22, tells us the following about preclearance officers:

A preclearance officer may conduct the strip search if they have reasonable grounds to suspect that the conditions under paragraphs (1)?(a) and (b) are still met …

This is the most intrusive kind of search, but he can conduct it if a border services officer declines to conduct it.

Subclause 22(2) says that, if an American preclearance officer wants a strip search to be conducted, he must ask a Canadian officer to do so. However, in paragraph 22(4)(a), we see that an American preclearance officer can conduct a strip search if a customs officer declines to do so.

There is nothing else in the paragraph. How is it to be interpreted? If a Canadian customs officer is present, sees that there are reasonable grounds but is not in agreement and will not strip search a person, how will things end up under this provision?

[Ralph Goodale, Liberal, Regina—Wascana, SK]

Mr. Arseneault, first of all, welcome to the committee. I think this is the first time we've had the opportunity to have an exchange.

The one change in this section compared with the existing arrangement is that if a Canadian officer cannot be reasonably available, then the American officer can proceed with the search.

There are two things about that. I have spoken with the chief executive officer, the president of CBSA, to make the very strong point that Canadian officers need to make themselves available. This legislation contemplates that kind of collaboration and service. If there is a problem, as I indicated earlier, you take this rule, apply it over the last 60 years and it's not likely that this problem would have arisen at all.

However, if it arises, then CBSA should respond—and quickly—to the circumstances to make sure that the spirit of the law is respected. If, in some very unlikely circumstance, the CBSA cannot respond, then the search could proceed, but it would be according to Canadian rules, not American rules. The provisions of the charter apply, and the respect for human rights, and so forth. As well, it has to be reported on after the fact so that the details, if necessary, can be fully examined.

We've tried to make sure there's a very strong fence built around this provision so that the rights of Canadians would not be affected in an undue way.

[René Arseneault, Liberal, Madawaska—Restigouche, NB]

Yes.

You said earlier—

[The Chair, Liberal, Rob Oliphant]

You have 10 seconds left.

[René Arseneault, Liberal, Madawaska—Restigouche, NB]

Ten seconds?

In that case, thank you very much.

[The Chair, Liberal, Rob Oliphant]

I am sorry; that's how it works.

I can give one minute to Ms. Watts.

[Dianne Lynn Watts, Conservative, South Surrey—White Rock, BC]

I'm good. I know Matthew wants to....

[The Chair, Liberal, Rob Oliphant]

Ms. Watts, are you giving your minute to Mr. Dubé?

[Dianne Lynn Watts, Conservative, South Surrey—White Rock, BC]

Yes.

[Matthew Dubé, NDP, Beloeil—Chambly, QC]

Thank you very much.

Minister, I wanted to ask one last question on the strip search issue. I feel highly uncomfortable when we draft legislation on something that is unlikely to happen or has never happened. That's usually not how we want to proceed.

Are there any concerns at all with some of the language used, especially when we think of the LGBTQ community and things like that. There are transgender Canadians who might be touched by this, especially given that American rules and regulations for an American officer might not be the same as what we would demand of the CBSA.

[Ralph Goodale, Liberal, Regina—Wascana, SK]

Both border services agencies have a set of rules about how to properly respect transgender issues. Since this activity would be happening in Canada, it would be the Canadian rules that would apply. Obviously, we will be vigilant to ensure that the rights of people travelling through a pre-clearance facility in Canada are properly safeguarded and respected.

[Matthew Dubé, NDP, Beloeil—Chambly, QC]

Is there any openness to amending so that there would be no instance where there would be the absence of a Canadian officer if a strip search were to occur, as is the case under the current framework? Is that change really necessary? Is it part of the agreement?

[Ralph Goodale, Liberal, Regina—Wascana, SK]

It's reflected in the agreement, yes. It is.

[Matthew Dubé, NDP, Beloeil—Chambly, QC]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Rob Oliphant]

Thank you, minister. Time flies, and thank you for getting us off to a good start.

We know officials will stay. We will suspend for three or four minutes while we allow the other officials to join us at the table.