Public Safety Committee on Oct. 3rd, 2017

[Pierre Paul-Hus, Conservative, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

In the case of land travel, will U.S. services inform Canada if, for example, some citizens are crossing the border every day? For screening purposes, you want to know who is leaving Canada. If screening is not performed in advance, the Americans must send us the information. Is that what will happen?

[Martin Bolduc]

Yes. Information is shared on both sides approximately every fifteen minutes. It doesn't happen in real time, but every 15 minutes or so.

[Pierre Paul-Hus, Conservative, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

If someone crosses the border into the United States and you receive a signal informing you that the person has a criminal record, that they are not allowed to travel or they are wanted, can the Americans intervene and arrest them, under the legislation currently in force?

[Martin Bolduc]

Yes, they can. U.S. customs officers already have access to certain databases. In the example you gave, if someone has a criminal record or they are wanted, the Americans already have access to that information. So, having no physical controls will not prevent an intervention that may be required by U.S. customs officers.

[Pierre Paul-Hus, Conservative, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

When it comes to the recent and ongoing wave of immigrants at the border since this past summer, does the same system apply? Those people are going through the back door. When they arrive in Canada, are the same rules applied in terms of information sharing?

[Ralph Goodale, Liberal, Regina—Wascana, SK]

Mr. Paul-Hus, whenever a person crosses the border in an irregular fashion, section 133 of the Immigration and Refugee Protection Act clicks into place. That section says that before a person would be subject to any legal proceedings about their irregular manner of entering the country, the first obligation under Canadian law is to determine their status in Canada. In other words, do they have a legitimate asylum claim or not? That is, as you know, a very deliberate process that involves the IRB and legal due process. But right at the border, if people are not coming through a port of entry, if they are coming around it in some manner, they are, first of all, apprehended by the RCMP. CBSA has jurisdiction at the port of entry. The RCMP has jurisdiction between ports of entry.

So the jurisdiction here, outside of a port of entry, is with the RCMP. They apprehend the individual. They begin a process to specifically identify who this person is by biographic information, by biometric information. They check not only Canadian databases but also American and international databases, including Interpol, to determine if there is any immigration issue with this person, if there is a criminal issue with this person, if there is any risk to national security, or if there is any question of terrorism. All of that data is assembled right at the spot. If there is a risk to the public, the person can be detained under Canadian law. If they detect a criminal offence that is taking place, the person is immediately turned over to local police authorities to be handled in the normal way under Canadian criminal law.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Mr. Paul-Hus, Minister Goodale, you're going to have to carry on this conversation—

[Ralph Goodale, Liberal, Regina—Wascana, SK]

Can I just make one final point?

There is a very deliberate process, and it's followed meticulously before people are further allowed to conduct their affairs in Canada.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Thank you.

Monsieur Dubé.

[Matthew Dubé, NDP, Beloeil—Chambly, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Minister, let me echo what you said about the events in Edmonton and Las Vegas.

Welcome back to the committee. I'm going to apologize in advance if I have to cut you off, as I do have several questions.

The first one is about the information-sharing regime put in place under what was Bill C-51 and that is maintained mostly in its integrity under Bill C-59. Would this information be shared among the government agencies covered by what is now referred to as SCISA?

[Ralph Goodale, Liberal, Regina—Wascana, SK]

Sorry, which specific information are you...?

[Matthew Dubé, NDP, Beloeil—Chambly, QC]

The information that Bill C-21 deals with and being kept by CBSA; the exit information. Is that covered by the information-sharing regime, set up by what was Bill C-51, among different government agencies ?

[Ralph Goodale, Liberal, Regina—Wascana, SK]

In due course, as it will be amended by Bill C-59, the rules would apply, Monsieur Dubé, but again, the critical point for the purposes of Bill C-21 is the nature of the information. It is nothing more or nothing less than what is on page 2 of your passport.

[Matthew Dubé, NDP, Beloeil—Chambly, QC]

Minister, that's fair, but the question is this. So as amended under Bill C-59—that's fine—this information will be shareable across government agencies, based on that regime of information sharing.

[Ralph Goodale, Liberal, Regina—Wascana, SK]

It will be subject to the rules and the law.

[Matthew Dubé, NDP, Beloeil—Chambly, QC]

Correct. Okay. Thank you.

The other question I have is that the bill says that the agency “may collect”.

Does that give the officers discretion, or will it be done consistently in all cases of someone leaving the country? The word “may” implies that officers could arbitrarily decide, at the border, to collect information or not.

[Ralph Goodale, Liberal, Regina—Wascana, SK]

It is not intended to imply any kind of inconsistency or capriciousness, Monsieur Dubé. The justice department drafters have informed us—and I've raised this issue with them in relation to other legislation as well—that this is the appropriate language to use in a statute of this kind so that the agency is empowered to do what they need to do and the agency will apply the law consistently.

[Matthew Dubé, NDP, Beloeil—Chambly, QC]

So this process of collecting exit information will be done to every traveller, regardless.

[Ralph Goodale, Liberal, Regina—Wascana, SK]

Yes, and automatically.

[Matthew Dubé, NDP, Beloeil—Chambly, QC]

Okay. Thank you.

With regard to my next question, we had this same issue with Bill C-23. Of course, we recognize that regulation is part of legislation and that not everything can be done by legislative means. However, once again, the feeling is that there is a pretty large scope to the regulatory piece in here. It says that: (2) The Governor in Council may make regulations for the purposes of subsection (1), including regulations(a) prescribing the sources from which the information may be collected;(b) respecting the circumstances in which the information may be collected; and(c) respecting the time within which and the manner in which the information may be collected.

Why would that be left so large? That can significantly change the scope of how this information is being collected at the border.

[Ralph Goodale, Liberal, Regina—Wascana, SK]

I'll ask Martin to comment on that, Monsieur Dubé, but the point here is that the precise details are better left to regulations. Those regulations themselves will be subject to a public review process before they can actually be—

[Matthew Dubé, NDP, Beloeil—Chambly, QC]

That's not quite as robust as the legislative process, of course.

[Ralph Goodale, Liberal, Regina—Wascana, SK]

It's a very robust process.

[Matthew Dubé, NDP, Beloeil—Chambly, QC]

It's a little bit more under the radar than a debate in the House of Commons.

[Ralph Goodale, Liberal, Regina—Wascana, SK]

But you have the complete opportunity, Monsieur Dubé, to trigger that debate. If you are unhappy with the regulations, you can raise that point. That's why our regulatory system is very transparent.