Public Safety Committee on Oct. 31st, 2017

[Michel Picard, Liberal, Montarville, QC]

Let me come back to the cultural issue. Although our obligation to design specific programs is governed by the act, has this sort of initiative triggered—also for cultural reasons—requests for new programs from ethnic groups, requests for “culturally motivated" initiatives under the pretext that this different approach ultimately seems to yield particular and positive results?

Have you seen this secondary effect of implementing new initiatives for indigenous people in a non-indigenous environment?

[Anne Kelly]

With the increased number of black offenders in the Atlantic region, ethnocultural committees provide us with advice. A suggestion was put forward. For indigenous offenders, we have a commissioner's directive that outlines what we do. I know that the ethnocultural committee suggested that it might be appropriate to develop a guideline for black offenders in the Atlantic region.

[Michel Picard, Liberal, Montarville, QC]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Mr. MacKenzie, you have five minutes.

[Dave MacKenzie, Conservative, Oxford, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

I'd like to go back to trying to break the whole chain of indigenous people being incarcerated. When we looked at self-reported data from inmates, we saw that half had been in the care of the child welfare system, 96% indicated that substance abuse was related to the current offence, 88% reported they had a family member struggling with alcohol or drug addiction, and nearly one-third of the sample indicated they were first introduced to indigenous cultural teachings in prison. It seems to me that we're trying to correct in the prison system a problem that began long before people got there. I'm impressed with the prison system. I've seen it. I believe your people are doing a tremendous job, but we need to break that pattern at home.

We used to see it years ago with family violence in the home. If people were part of a violent family as they grew up, it was only natural they would continue on that path. Once we can break that, then we break the system of people coming in. It's almost recidivism by family as opposed to by individual.

Have you any suggestions on what we might do to try to break that at its source in a far more effective way than spending money and time and maybe not being successful at the far end?

Maybe the witness from crime prevention is a good place to start.

[Angela Connidis]

When we look at the criminal justice system, we like to say it's on a continuum. If you want to change things, you need to look across that continuum, and the beginning of that continuum is crime prevention.

In the federal-provincial-territorial ministers meetings, one of the priorities was to develop a five-year national action plan for crime prevention. We're working closely with the provinces to build crime prevention together, to have joint action plans. This is not focused on indigenous communities but on crime prevention writ large. However, it's an acknowledgement that the federal government is not going to do it on its own, and the provincial government isn't, so we need to work together.

I find that a very exciting approach. I'm glad the ministers decided to take that on as a priority. We're moving into the last year of the five-year action plan, and we've had a very productive relationship with the provinces in bringing this forward.

When we look at the indigenous communities in particular and at the calls to action and wanting to move forward on reconciliation, it is at that crime prevention stage. You want to focus on that.

At Public Safety, we're doing an internal audit of crime prevention. We plan to restructure that perhaps, depending on what the evaluation shows. Part of it will be about how we can effectively get into communities.

One thing that is really important to bear in mind is that we can help with the solution, but we should really make sure that the key players are identifying what the problem is and what they need as a solution.

[Dave MacKenzie, Conservative, Oxford, ON]

Part of that has to be, in some cases, with the band and band councils. Is it fair to say that some band councils are more active than others? Do we need to work with everybody to get it to be across the board as much as we can?

[Angela Connidis]

I'm not familiar with all the bands, but I know different communities have different capacities. Some have a greater capacity for working with the federal government or other partners than others do.

I'm keeping an eye on my time here.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

You have a minute. The members have great talent at ignoring the chair.

[Angela Connidis]

One community we worked with said that they couldn't start this program because they'd had too much pain in their community, too many suicides. They said they needed to have a walk around, so part of the community safety planning was to do a walk around through the community to help them heal and get over it and be able to move on to the next stage.

Now, we would never have thought of that. They identified it. It is about looking at what each community needs and helping them with their capacity. That's why we wait until we're invited in to work with them, because some of them have other priorities. As an example, perhaps they've had flooding and a fire, so they're not in a position to deal with crime right now, or a community safety plan.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Thank you.

You actually have 15 seconds left. That was impressive.

For the final five minutes, we have Ms. Dabrusin.

[Julie Dabrusin, Liberal, Toronto—Danforth, ON]

I believe it was Ms. Damoff. I'm happy to take it, though.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Sorry. I apologize.

[Pam Damoff, Liberal, Oakville North—Burlington, ON]

I want to bring us back to our study, which is consideration of why indigenous offenders are not being released more frequently and are not completing programs.

As Mr. Picard mentioned, we had the opportunity through the Union of Solicitor General Employees to do a tour of the community corrections centre and parole office at Stony Mountain when we were in Winnipeg about a year and half ago.

I've seen numbers for indigenous offenders at Stony Mountain as high as 65% of the prison population. The Pathways program there was a very small component of it. If I remember correctly, it was only one wing in the prison.

In terms of offenders accessing that program, could you provide us with a breakdown—I don't need it right now—of the number of indigenous offenders in the system, as well as the number who are accessing healing lodges and the Pathways program? I think 28 beds for female offenders at a healing lodge is pretty small. It's a great program, but it's a small number.

I know that at Stony Mountain it was only offenders who were committed to the Pathways program who were going into it, which is great, but how do we deal with all those other offenders in places like Stony Mountain who are not accessing it and aren't motivated to be part of that program? How do we reach those offenders?

[Anne Kelly]

You're quite right. In terms of accessing Pathways, you really need to be on a healing path and work extensively with the elder. For the other offenders, obviously the case management team is there, and they're there to try to motivate them. It's the same with the elder.

Having been a parole officer, oftentimes it was my job to try to motivate offenders and try to encourage them to participate in programs and give it a chance to see if it would make a difference. It's very important that all staff be involved, because when, say, an offender participates in a program, the correctional officers write an observation report. The shop instructor can tell you whether or not they're actually applying the skills that they learned in the program. What you try as a parole officer is to say, “Listen, it's having an impact. You're reacting differently. You're interacting differently.”

[Pam Damoff, Liberal, Oakville North—Burlington, ON]

I'm going to cut you off there because I only have five minutes. If you have any suggestions on improving that situation, could you provide them to the committee?

The second part of my question has to do with not only indigenous offenders but all offenders. There were a lot of cuts made to the CORCAN program or the types of programs that were being offered to offenders. Obviously we want to make sure that offenders are rehabilitated, since most are getting out, and can reintegrate into society. Do you see a benefit to providing greater investment into the CORCAN program within our prison system?

[Anne Kelly]

We'll be able to do that through budget 2017, and that's why we'll have these pre-employment centres at two of our healing lodges, and then at CORCAN community industries, they can build the infrastructure for modular homes. Also, in some way we're helping with a government priority, because housing in indigenous communities is an issue.

Definitely what we want are offenders who are meaningfully employed in the institution, because when they're meaningfully employed, there are other things they're not doing, which is good. We want them focusing on their correction plan.

In terms of release to the community, one of the indicators that an offender will be more successful is if he is able to get a job once he is in the community.

[Pam Damoff, Liberal, Oakville North—Burlington, ON]

One of the recommendations of the corrections investigator was to appoint a deputy commissioner of aboriginal corrections. Has that been done?

[Anne Kelly]

No, it hasn't. Actually, I'm really glad you asked that question. I'm the senior deputy commissioner. I'm the most senior executive reporting to the commissioner. I think it's very important that aboriginal corrections be integrated throughout all the regions and be a shared accountability.

The other reason that I believe—

[Pam Damoff, Liberal, Oakville North—Burlington, ON]

Are you saying there shouldn't be one?

[Anne Kelly]

No, I believe that the structure we have now is a good one.

The other reason is that I'm also responsible for a number of other key files, like our supermax prisons, our special handling unit for who comes in and out, as well as third-level grievances from offenders and commissioner's referrals for detention. I'm also chairing the long-term segregation committee and I'm also responsible for investigations, and there are lots of aboriginal offenders. I can actually see the trends and influence the decisions.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Thank you, Ms. Damoff.

Before I suspend, I want to thank the witnesses on behalf of the committee. It has been an interesting hour and a half.

With that, we're going to go in camera as soon as the room is cleared.

[Proceedings continue in camera]