Public Safety Committee on Nov. 2nd, 2017

[Anne Cattral]

I would say that the device is effective in picking up very small particles of illicit drugs. It is not effective in picking up whether or not the person is actually smuggling contraband.

The human aspect is something different. There may need to be more training on that, but the device itself does not function in the way that CSC thinks it's functioning in that it deters contraband from getting into the institutions.

[Pierre Paul-Hus, Conservative, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

I inadvertently cut off Mr. Paul-Hus for a few seconds, so go ahead, Ms. Mathias.

[Irene Mathias]

I want to make it very clear that we're very concerned about drugs in prison, especially so at the present time when fentanyl is getting in. We not only want the ion scanner not to be used anymore, but we urgently want the CSC to introduce methods of stopping drugs getting into prison, including by drones and staff and through maintenance workers, because our loved ones inside are at risk.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Thank you.

Ms. Damoff, you have five minutes, please.

[Pam Damoff, Liberal, Oakville North—Burlington, ON]

Thanks to all of you for being here, and thank you for sharing your personal stories. I know it's not easy for you to appear before us, so we greatly appreciate it.

First of all, the minister did respond to the petition, and in that he's asked CSC to conduct a review. You've probably seen it. I think it would be helpful, Chair, if as a committee we were to get a copy of that as well when that review is completed.

I also think it's important for all of you to know that we recognize the importance of families visiting offenders, the importance for rehabilitation, and at the same time wanting to keep drugs out of prison.... In the report of the Office of the Correctional Investigator, he actually said that these scanners were introduced in 1995 and said:

...the introduction of ion scanners has failed to have any significant impact on the rate of positive random urinalysis drug testing results. The rate has remained stable despite significant investments in new detection...and surveillance technologies designed to stop drugs from entering federal institutions.

We want to keep drugs out, but this isn't what's doing it, according to the correctional investigator. I'm wondering if any of you have any examples of what other jurisdictions are doing. I don't think they're necessarily having particular success either, but I'm wondering if you have any suggestions on what other jurisdictions are using for drugs.

[Dr. Stacey Hannem]

I think the failure to effectively deal with drug introduction to prison is a symptom of the way that we divide up our staff from other visitors.

In 2006, when the so-called blue ribbon panel report on corrections reviewed correctional practices, drug interdiction was raised as an issue then. The response from the correctional officers' union was to say spend more time, more drug dogs, more ion scanners, and more scrutiny on visitors, and that has been completely ineffective in reducing the amount of drugs in prison.

One then has to start looking at why we aren't looking in other directions. If more scrutiny, more drug dogs, and more ion scans on visitors don't reduce the amount of drugs in prisons, why aren't we looking at contractors, staff, and all of the other various people who come in and out of institutions? I think the jurisdictions that have been most effective in keeping drugs out of prisons have a more holistic view of where the threat is coming from.

[Pam Damoff, Liberal, Oakville North—Burlington, ON]

I read an article in the National Post in 2013 about these issues. A few of you have mentioned about CBSA using these machines. The headline is “Expensive new high-tech border scanners often break down, less effective than detection dogs”. In that, one of the CBSA union spokespersons said, “There's no question that our best detection tools have legs and heartbeats...”, and he was specifically referring to intelligence officers and detection dogs. I'm wondering if you could comment on that.

[Dr. Stacey Hannem]

The dogs, when well trained, are excellent tools. My understanding is that they are not completely infallible. An excellently trained dog will also respond to its handler and can be ordered to sit in a way that would not be obvious to someone who didn't have a trained eye for it. When they're used properly by competent, ethical people, they're excellent.

[Pam Damoff, Liberal, Oakville North—Burlington, ON]

In my remaining minute and 15 seconds, what are your recommendations for what CSC should do? It sounds like one of them is to expands the number of people who are checked as they come into the institutions. I'd welcome that answer, in a minute.

[Irene Mathias]

I just want you to know that when the ion scanner was originally introduced, for a period of time staff were subjected to it, but because of the excessive false positives, which would keep staff from being able to go in and work and all kinds of things, it was the union that petitioned CSC to stop using the scanner on staff.

I don't know that it's up to us to tell CSC how to keep their staff and maintenance workers from bringing drugs in. There must be examples and technologies in other jurisdictions somewhere in the world that they can look for. They just need to look for it.

[Pam Damoff, Liberal, Oakville North—Burlington, ON]

Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Thank you, Ms. Damoff.

Mr. Van Kesteren.

[Dave Van Kesteren, Conservative, Chatham-Kent—Leamington, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

Thanks to all of you for coming today. I think you bring to us an element that is not often seen in this place. We all have mothers, and mothers tend to turn our hearts in a different direction.

I've only been to a prison once. I was visiting a landed immigrant, as a matter of fact. I want to clarify that—

[Voices]

Oh, oh!

[Dave Van Kesteren, Conservative, Chatham-Kent—Leamington, ON]

—but if I had been to prison, I'd admit to that too. When I visited, I was absolutely shocked at the conditions and the close quarters, with everybody at that particular time all together in what was like a cage.

It left an impression on me. I can't imagine, of course, your experiencing this on a regular basis. You have stated that you agree drugs should be kept out of prison. Are they allowed to smoke in prisons?

[Anne Cattral]

No.

[Dave Van Kesteren, Conservative, Chatham-Kent—Leamington, ON]

How do you feel about that? Please don't be politically correct. We get a lot of that around here. We have way too much political correctness.

[Irene Mathias]

I think it's actually very hard on them, because a lot of the guards smoke. They go a short distance away, have a cigarette, and come back. You're constantly smelling somebody else smoking. For a lot of people.... I'm a person who struggled with nicotine addiction for years, and I go on and off smoking. I know that it is one of my coping mechanisms. It's a stress reducer for me. There isn't even an outdoor smoking area.

People then turn to whatever else they can find as stress reducers. They brew homebrew. They make booze and whatever. There's also a lot of money to be made, and I think that is a factor for workers of one kind or another bringing drugs in. There's a lot of money to be made.

[Dave Van Kesteren, Conservative, Chatham-Kent—Leamington, ON]

You're absolutely right.

We all had mothers. My mother is gone now, but I'll testify that she was probably one of the wisest of women. She never smoked, but we would talk about smoking, and obviously with a large family, there were some who smoked. She would say that people need their vices. I can't imagine being in a prison when you're stripped of all those things. I think you described perfectly what that is—a stress reliever—and we have no idea of the types of stress.

Do you think it's a human right for them to smoke in prison?

[Anne Cattral]

It's so hard. I'm an ex-smoker myself. My son is in there. He's a non-smoker and he's so happy that nobody is allowed to smoke, but I would suggest that to expect somebody who maybe has smoked since they were 12 or 13 years old, maybe 20-some years, to stop cold turkey would be very difficult.

Again, I would say, along with Irene, that if there were an outside smoking lodge or whatever that they could go to and have cigarettes legally in there—they're illegal—as well as other harm reduction techniques that they need to introduce into the prison in terms of any other addictions they have.... It's an addiction.

[Dave Van Kesteren, Conservative, Chatham-Kent—Leamington, ON]

Would taking a pack of cigarettes be in the same vein of restrictions? If they catch you with that, and—

[Anne Cattral]

Yes, absolutely.

[Irene Mathias]

Oh, yes.

[Anne Cattral]

I saw one gentleman very stupidly put his cigarettes in the locker, and he was escorted out by the OPP.