Public Safety Committee on Nov. 30th, 2017

[Sven Spengemann, Liberal, Mississauga—Lakeshore, ON]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair. I'd like to welcome Minister Goodale to the committee with his team and extend my congratulations to Mr. Rigby and welcome him in his new role.

I'd like to also echo Mr. Motz's appreciation for bringing this bill to us before second reading.

Minister Goodale, my question falls squarely into the overarching framework that we need both good security and to protect our charter rights. It's about Canadian youth and their vulnerability to terrorism. In particular, we have terrorist networks around the world like Abu Sayyaf, in the Philippines; al Shabaab in Somalia; ISIS in Syria, and the Levant; and future terrorist networks, potentially or likely, that will prey on youth in various countries. These are children, really, according to my reading, who range between the ages of 14 and 19 or who are into their early twenties.

Clause 159 of the bill brings the Youth Criminal Justice Act into connection with Bill C-59, applies it to Bill C-59, including the principle that detention is not a substitute for social measures and also that preventative detention, as provided for in section 83.3 of the Criminal Code, falls into that same framework. It's not a substitute.

I wonder if you could comment on your vision of how the bill relates to young offenders, vulnerable youth, essentially the pre-commission of any terrorist offences or recruitment by networks, and then also your broader vision about how we can do better in terms of preventing terrorism in the first place by making sure these networks do not prey on Canadian youth and children.

[Ralph Goodale, Liberal, Regina—Wascana, SK]

It's a very serious issue, Mr. Spengemann. You really have touched on the two elements we're working on. Through the collection of new provisions that are here in Bill C-59 we will give CSIS and the RCMP and our other agencies the ability and the tools to be as well informed as humanly possible about these activities and to be able to function with clarity within the law and within the Constitution to do what they need to do to counter those threats. Specifically where offences arise in relation to young people, the Youth Criminal Justice Act applies, so that is the process by which young offenders will be managed under this law.

The other side of it is prevention, and all of the countries in the G20, and probably many others around the world, are turning their attention more and more to this question. It has been discussed among the Five Eyes allies. It's been discussed among the G7 countries as well as the G20.

How can we find the ways and share our expertise internationally with all countries that share this concern? How can we find the ways to identify vulnerable people early enough to have a decent opportunity to intervene effectively in that downward spiral of terrorist influence to get them out of that pattern?

Obviously intervention and counter-radicalization techniques will not work in every circumstance. That's why we need a broad range of tools to deal with terrorist threats, but where prevention is possible, we need to develop the expertise to actually do it. That is the reason we created the new Canada centre for community engagement and prevention of violence, so we would have a national office that could coordinate the activities that are going along at the local and municipal and academic levels across the country, put some more resources behind those, and make sure we are sharing the very best ideas and information so that if we can prevent a tragedy, we actually have the tools to do it.

[Sven Spengemann, Liberal, Mississauga—Lakeshore, ON]

Minister, thank you.

Very briefly, would it be fair to say that disrupting recruitment efforts of international or domestic terrorist organizations is as significant as disrupting terrorist finance is?

[Ralph Goodale, Liberal, Regina—Wascana, SK]

Yes. It's all important. It's hard to put them in a hierarchical order. It's all important activity, and we're doing our best to have a coordinated, full effort with everybody on board.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Thank you, Mr. Spengemann.

Ms. Gallant, go ahead for five minutes.

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Through you to the minister, Canadians from coast to coast are asking why the government appears to be more concerned about the rights of terrorists than about the safety and security of Canadians with the returning ISIL fighters.

Do you believe that the returning ISIL fighters can be rehabilitated?

[Ralph Goodale, Liberal, Regina—Wascana, SK]

I think Madam Gallant, the way you put that, it's a complete misstatement of the government's position.

We believe we need a robust set of measures to deal with the terrorist threat. That includes our participation in the global coalition against Daesh. Canada's role there, especially our intelligence-collecting capacity, has been a very large asset. We need the surveillance, the intelligence gathering, and the monitoring capacity of our security agencies. We need the ability of our police forces to collect evidence to prepare cases that can be sustained in court. We need the ability to use no-fly lists, the ability to list people and entities under the Criminal Code, to apply for peace bonds, and to use the threat-reduction powers of CSIS.

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON]

Thank you, Minister.

[Ralph Goodale, Liberal, Regina—Wascana, SK]

You need all those things together, including a prevention effort.

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON]

I do recall from defence that your government withdrew the CF-18 fighters that were cover for our soldiers fighting ISIL as well.

Why does this bill lack the legislation that includes measures to criminalize travel to regions under the control of terrorist organizations?

[Ralph Goodale, Liberal, Regina—Wascana, SK]

It's already an offence under the Criminal Code.

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON]

Is it an offence to go into the regions?

[Ralph Goodale, Liberal, Regina—Wascana, SK]

If you are travelling for a terrorist purpose, if you leave Canada to travel for a terrorist purpose, that is an offence under the Criminal Code.

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON]

Then why are the people returning not being charged under that offence?

[Ralph Goodale, Liberal, Regina—Wascana, SK]

There are about 60 of those returnees back in Canada. Bear in mind, these are people who have gone to a whole variety of theatres of terrorist activity around the world. Some would have been directly involved, others less so. The security and intelligence efforts of Canadians and all our allies around the world are watching these people intently to know exactly what they're up to.

When they come back, if evidence is available that can stand up in court, they are charged. In the last two years, there have been two charges laid because we believe we have the evidence that can be prosecuted in court. Up until that time, no charges had been laid.

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON]

Minister, you say the number is 60, when in reality we don't have a finite figure. In fact, with the mass migration of people seeking asylum across the U.S.-Canadian border, those are the people who wanted to be caught. The border enforcement agencies have been overwhelmed with those. What about the people who crossed into Canada who didn't want to be seen? We don't know that there are only 60 people who were fighting with ISIL.

In light of the recent terrorist attack domestically that Mr. MacKenzie referred to, there are terrorist attacks in the U.K. and the EU in addition to Canada that included the acquisition and use of objects available to citizens, such as vehicles, chemicals, and so on. Has the government reviewed the provisions of Bill C-59 to ensure that it permits appropriate emergency disruptive activities, including without warrant, where required?

[Ralph Goodale, Liberal, Regina—Wascana, SK]

We believe the measures that have been put together here, based upon the most extensive consultation with Canadian experts, parliamentarians, and the general public, are indeed appropriate to accomplish two objectives—one, to keep Canadians safe, and two, to safeguard their rights and freedoms—and to do those things together.

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON]

I have one last question. Part of the deradicalization centre's job, or what they say is one of their methods, is to read poetry to the returning ISIL fighters. Because we have people from other allied countries listening in, can you specifically give us the title of a poem that might help deradicalize returning ISIL fighters?

[Ralph Goodale, Liberal, Regina—Wascana, SK]

You're obviously trying to—

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Mr. Minister, unfortunately Ms. Gallant has not provided you with sufficient time to provide your opinions on poetry.

I have five minutes left for Mr. Fragiskatos, and then we'll suspend.

[Peter Fragiskatos, Liberal, London North Centre, ON]

Thank you very much, Chair, and thank you, Minister and officials, for being here today.

Minister, at the outset you said that the Charter of Rights is paramount here. I wonder if you could speak to the place of the charter in all of this, in Bill C-59 and where the charter factors in.

[Ralph Goodale, Liberal, Regina—Wascana, SK]

The most prominent issue that emerged from Bill C-51 was the original wording of what became section 12.1 of the CSIS Act, which implied, by the way the section was structured, that CSIS could go to a court and get the authority of the court to violate the charter. Every legal scholar I've ever heard opine on this topic has said that is a legal nullity. An ordinary piece of legislation such as the CSIS Act cannot override the charter. The charter is paramount. However, the language in the way section 12.1 was structured left the impression that you could go to the court and get authority to violate the charter.

In the language change that we have put into Bill C-59, first of all, we have specified a list of disruption activities that CSIS may undertake with the proper court authorization, but when they go to the court to ask for authority, the ruling they're asking for from the court is not that it violate the charter, but that it fits within the charter, that in fact it is consistent with the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms, including clause 1 of the charter.

That's the difference between the structure of the old section and how we've tried to make it clear that the charter prevails.

[Peter Fragiskatos, Liberal, London North Centre, ON]

Thank you very much.

On one hand, I wanted to ask about rights, but on the other hand, I also want to ask about security, specifically, a question about cybersecurity.

We could have a situation, as a result of even one attack, where our banking and electricity systems are undermined. I've given you maybe one minute to answer this, but in what ways does Bill C-59 provide a more robust framework to prevent against such attacks and protect Canadians?

[Ralph Goodale, Liberal, Regina—Wascana, SK]

You can expect to see a whole range of proposals dealing with enhanced cybersecurity from the government in the next number of months. The existing cyber-policy goes back to 2010. It was thought at that time to be cutting edge, but technology has marched on.

We will be introducing an entirely new set of measures to strengthen Canada's cyber-capacity. One piece of that is the new authority that we are giving to the CSE. Maybe I can ask Greta, in the interest of time here, to comment specifically on cyber-powers in the section on CSE.

[Greta Bossenmaier]

Thank you very much, Mr. Goodale.

I'll just highlight one in particular, given the reference to critical infrastructure. CSE currently deploys a number of very sophisticated tools to protect the Government of Canada's systems. With this legislation that's being proposed, one piece of it would allow CSE, upon request from a piece of infrastructure that's been designated as important to the Government of Canada, upon the request of the infrastructure owner, to deploy our sophisticated tools to help defend a piece of critical infrastructure that's, for example, being attacked from outside of Canada.

That's a concrete example of a particular measure that's included in here that would help Canadians and Canadian infrastructure be better protected from cyber-attacks.