Public Safety Committee on Feb. 13th, 2018

[Tricia Geddes]

I would concur with my colleague.

We work very closely with FINTRAC. I don't believe there are any changes required there. We invest in counterterrorism investigations, and terror financing is one aspect of that.

[Michel Picard, Liberal, Montarville, QC]

Thank you.

Mr. Brown, Bill C-59 changes the powers to oversee the various agencies mentioned in it.

What impact will that have on the Civilian Review and Complaints Commission for the RCMP?

[Malcolm Brown]

I think that question was raised during the first hour. Of course, it will have a positive impact because

Agencies will, I think, have greater clarity over what their expectations are.

This was an issue that we discussed, frankly, in the early days of the deliberations around the legislation. There was a recognition that there were gaps in the accountability regime, and we wanted to ensure that those gaps were filled in a way that didn't have a direct and negative impact on the operational capabilities of the agencies. Part of that is through greater clarity and expectation.

The other expectation is quite clear, and it's in the NSICOP legislation, for example. We expect NSICOP and NSIRA to consult and work with each other to ensure that they don't overlap unnecessarily and that they coordinate their activities.

There's no question that this will result—I would think this is one of the objectives—in greater transparency and greater public understanding of what we all do on a daily basis.

We're also taking steps to simplify the process through the transparency initiative, where the objective is that information that shouldn't be withheld can be shared publicly. This should eliminate going through access to information or whatever kinds of processes are required to release information. If we can release it proactively, we're lightening the burden.

I fully recognize that there has been some commentary about an increased burden, but as Tricia has mentioned, each of the deputy heads have indicated that they welcome and can function effectively within the proposed framework for oversight and review.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Thank you, Mr. Picard.

Mr. Motz, you have five minutes.

[Glen Motz, Conservative, Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

My colleague started this conversation, and this issue was mentioned by a witness before this committee. It's the issue of intelligence and evidence, and the inability to bring intelligence gathered elsewhere into the courts as evidence without compromising national security, an informant, or other issues. Does this bill do anything to empower our law enforcement officials or Public Prosecutions on the issues of national security?

[Malcolm Brown]

You may have noticed some nodding and long faces. This is a very complicated issue.

[Glen Motz, Conservative, Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB]

Yes.

[Malcolm Brown]

Working with our friends in the Department of Justice, there are conversations and discussions going on, because it is a Justice and Public Safety dialogue with our colleagues in the provinces and the territories. There is, I would say, a general consensus that we need to do better, but Bill C-59 doesn't propose changes. We are actively engaging with our colleagues in the Department of Justice, as I say, on ways to improve the status quo, and that also involves engagement with provincial jurisdictions.

[Glen Motz, Conservative, Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Brown.

If I can be so bold as to interpret what you've just told me, it's that maybe Bill C-59 should be strengthened in that area?

[Malcolm Brown]

Well, that's for the committee to make a determination on.

[Glen Motz, Conservative, Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB]

Yes, I appreciate that.

[Malcolm Brown]

I will say that it's a very complicated issue that, frankly, from the officials' perspective and engaging, I don't think I'm revealing anything.... I probably am, but....

[Voices]

Oh, oh!

[Malcolm Brown]

I don't think I'm revealing anything about our deliberations with provincial colleagues. It's an issue under active discussion and there is no consensus, and that is a problem, a challenge for all of us.

[Glen Motz, Conservative, Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB]

I won't pursue that line. I would be so brave as to suggest, then, that just maybe Bill C-59 should include some provision to work with other departments in order to make that happen—and stronger, if I'm hearing what you're providing for us.

[Malcolm Brown]

I'm not sure we need a legislated provision for that. This is an issue that is really important, and we are, as I say, actively engaged. The challenge, to be frank, is that there are quite profound issues around the way information is gathered and the constraints on how it can be shared, the extent to which it's effective, and its impact on the functioning of the court system at both the federal and provincial levels.

There are discussions and processes currently under way, and I would say that officials are seized with trying to make progress. I think one of the challenges is that there are very strongly held views on this issue across the spectrum.

[Glen Motz, Conservative, Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Brown.

Last, there's nothing I can see in this bill that really speaks to or deals with issues like the proposed takeover of Aecon and the sale of sensitive or national assets to China or other similar types of countries. Can you walk us through what role CSIS might play in this process and if there are any changes needed in this act to improve that?

Other departments here can also comment in the time that I have remaining.

[Tricia Geddes]

Certainly this is part of our mandate, and we participate with other government agencies and departments in providing advice to the government. That is obviously quite secret advice that we provide, but the Governor in Council can certainly allow, disallow, or impose mitigation measures on investments. You probably know how the process works. We do have capacity within CSIS to support this, but as you note, it is certainly an area where there is a significant amount of pressure, and it requires a considerable amount of effort from the service.

[Glen Motz, Conservative, Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB]

Does Bill C-59 offer any strength to your role in that process?

[Tricia Geddes]

I think the tools and the authorities that we're provided in Bill C-59 —I would probably look at the data analytics provision as one example—are certainly going to support us in that work.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Ms. Damoff, you have five minutes.

[Pam Damoff, Liberal, Oakville North—Burlington, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair. I just have one question, following up the questions that my colleague was asking.

In terms of changes that have been made in Bill C-59 to the CRCC, the Civilian Review and Complaints Commission, and the RCMP specifically, how will these impact the RCMP, and do you anticipate that the latter will work better under Bill C-59? Can you give us a little more information?

Mr. Brown, I'm not sure whether it would be you or the RCMP who would respond to that.

[Malcolm Brown]

Really briefly, in some ways we're trying to clarify where CRCC's lines are and where NSIRA will be in terms of the conduct of national security reviews. I think conduct complaints and those kinds of things are clarified.

Gilles.

[D/Commr Gilles Michaud]

From an agency perspective, that is a welcome change, because when it comes to our national security mandate, very rarely do we exercise it in isolation. It's always working with our partners, those who are sitting at the table: CBSA, and so on. As a review is ordered on some of our activities, it is very difficult for a single agency to look at it unless you look across the spectrum of those who are involved.

From our perspective, it is a welcome change.

[Pam Damoff, Liberal, Oakville North—Burlington, ON]

Thank you. I don't have any other questions.