Public Safety Committee on Feb. 25th, 2020

[Dr. Ivan Zinger]

Corrections has spent an inordinate amount on interdiction measures to try to prevent drugs from going into penitentiaries. We have spent hundreds of millions of dollars on all sorts of initiatives, and those initiatives have not yielded the results that we would expect.

The evidence shows, for example, that random urinalysis tests that are positive have not changed dramatically or significantly since we spent this inordinate amount. It's usually around 6% or 7% of all random urinalyses that come back positive, despite all the money that has been spent on interdiction measures.

I agree with you that more has to be done in world-class programming and treatment for addiction in prison, as well as much better harm reduction strategies, including health care driven needle exchanges in prisons.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

We're going have to leave it there.

Mr. Iacono, I believe you have a question. Then we'll go to Ms. Damoff after that.

[Angelo Iacono, Liberal, Alfred-Pellan, QC]

Mr. Zinger, you mention in your report that prisoners do not have health cards or identification in federal prisons. Can you clarify that?

What happens when an inmate has to go to the hospital? Surely he must have a health card.

[Dr. Ivan Zinger]

This is one of the issues we have been documenting for several years and it still doesn't seem to be fixed. When we talk about putting the community first in a part of the Correctional Service's budget, it's for things as simple as that.

When people leave the penitentiary, they should have all the identification cards they need to get medical care and social assistance, or to get a driver's licence to work or anything else. That is where the problem lies. These are such simple things that are done in some cases.

[Angelo Iacono, Liberal, Alfred-Pellan, QC]

During their incarceration, do they already have their cards?

[Dr. Ivan Zinger]

No, because sometimes they can be there for years. It is at the exit that we have to prepare people and make sure that they have, for example, their birth certificate, so that they can apply for a card.

[Angelo Iacono, Liberal, Alfred-Pellan, QC]

All right.

I understand when you talk about their release, but when they're already incarcerated and they have to go to the hospital, how do they present themselves if they don't have a health card?

[Dr. Ivan Zinger]

Federal services pay for their medical care when they are incarcerated in a federal institution.

[Angelo Iacono, Liberal, Alfred-Pellan, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Zinger.

[Pam Damoff, Liberal, Oakville North—Burlington, ON]

Dr. Zinger, I don't know if you are aware that correctional services and indigenous services have signed an agreement that indigenous people can get their status cards immediately when they leave prison. That's a start. It's certainly not the solution altogether, but it seems the federal government can at least arrange that with its own departments. Birth certificates and health cards are provincial, which makes it more complicated.

Everybody seems to agree that we need more section 81 and section 84 agreements done. We need more healing lodges. We need to get more indigenous people into healing lodges. What challenge is the government facing in getting that done? It was a recommendation from our committee. It's been your recommendation as well. What kinds of challenges is the government facing in getting that accomplished?

[Dr. Ivan Zinger]

Thank you.

I'm glad to hear that there has been some progress with respect to some of the ID cards. For me, the frustration is that some parts of the service do that very well—there are some best practices—but it is not nationally available. The challenge for the service is to implement best practices, so that the ID card issue is resolved.

As to section 81 and section 84, part of the push-back from the service has always been that some indigenous communities have no interest in taking on some of those responsibilities, or don't have the capacity. I think we have to challenge that and really engage those communities to see, for example, over a 10-year period, how one could change the face of corrections and really shift that responsibility to indigenous communities. It has to be part of a very large initiative that would see the transfer of hundreds of millions of dollars to indigenous communities over a 10-year period.

These things are big ticket items that bureaucracy is, unfortunately, not always well equipped or adapted to do, which is to hand over money, as opposed to retaining the funding.

Such an approach would be quite bold and would require a lot of effort, partnership and sustained change. Governments are often ill equipped to deal with these kinds of major initiatives.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Thank you, Ms. Damoff.

We have four minutes left, and we have two more questioners, Madam Michaud and Mr. Harris.

I'll arbitrarily cut you back to two minutes each, please.

[Kristina Michaud, Bloc, Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC]

Based on your observations, you made 16 recommendations. All of them are important, but what are the most pressing recommendations for overhauling the system, as you mentioned? Where do we start?

[Dr. Ivan Zinger]

One of the things I mentioned was corporate culture. I think fundamental changes need to be made to make the culture more open. That would also improve accountability.

I would like to see an openness to our recommendations as well as those of the Truth and Reconciliation Commission and the National Inquiry into Missing and Murdered Indigenous Women and Girls, among others.

The Correctional Service needs to change its approach and perspective in order to be more open to change. It needs to put forward concrete initiatives with very specific timelines to make the priorities communicated in the September 2018 mandate letter a reality.

[Kristina Michaud, Bloc, Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC]

Thank you.

I will let my colleague continue the discussion.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Mr. Harris.

[Jack Harris, NDP, St. John's East, NL]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'd like to follow up on the question regarding treatment for addictions in federal prisons. It's a pretty big question. Organizations in my riding are very concerned about the fact that the Correctional Service doesn't often listen to the people who have expertise in the community.

What would it take to try to attack that problem? Do we need separate units in prisons, for example, to perhaps isolate those addicts from the rest of the population for a time so that they can go through the rehabilitation process, or is there some other recommendation that you have?

[Dr. Ivan Zinger]

Again, it's a question of priority.

I think this was raised previously. How do you balance interdiction measures with rehabilitation and harm reduction? My view is that, upon admission, the bulk of the prison population requires some substance abuse treatment. When we spend the amount of money that we are spending on corrections, we should have state-of-the-art treatment right from the beginning and sustained throughout the incarceration. We should spend more money on treatment than we are on the latest gadget that may or may not prevent drugs from coming in.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Thank you, Mr. Harris and Dr. Zinger.

On behalf of the committee, I want to acknowledge that you have shone a light on the system, and it's not a very pretty light.

I take note that the Auditor General has released a report, that there are two House of Commons committee reports and that there is one Senate report, all of which seem to say the same thing. Subsequently, there is agreement by everyone acknowledging that these are the recommendations and that they are very important recommendations, but not much seems to change.

I appreciate your persistence. I'm rather hoping that the committee will see some means by which it should follow up.

Again, thank you for that.

[Dr. Ivan Zinger]

It's my pleasure.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

We're not quite formally adjourned.

A motion was passed out at the beginning of the meeting. I would ask somebody to move it.

[Gagan Sikand, Liberal, Mississauga—Streetsville, ON]

I so move.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Is there any debate? I see none.

(Motion agreed to [See Minutes of Proceedings])

Thank you very much. With that, the meeting is adjourned.

Those of you who are on the subcommittee, please hang around.

It will be an in camera meeting, so I would ask that the room be cleared more quickly rather than less quickly.

Thank you.