Public Safety Committee on Feb. 25th, 2020

[Dr. Ivan Zinger]

For these three groups, there is talk of reallocating funds currently held by the Correctional Service.

There's also the community component. Penitentiaries in Canada are very old. There are three penitentiaries that are over 100 years old: Stony Mountain Institution, Saskatchewan Penitentiary—the inmates in these two penitentiaries are overwhelmingly aboriginal—and Dorchester Penitentiary. All three of these penitentiaries are over 100 years old and have old infrastructure.

On average, the vast majority of penitentiaries are between 40 and 50 years old. Once again, they were built at a time when correctional philosophy did not recognize the primacy of rehabilitation.

For example, there was a lot of talk about Edmonton Institution, which is 42 years old. It's concrete everywhere. There are very few rooms, very few lights, and very few hallways. It's an extraordinary infrastructure.

I suggest that all members of this committee and other committees go and visit penitentiaries. You have a statutory right enshrined in the act. If you have to legislate in criminal matters, go and visit penitentiaries to find out exactly what the consequences of the laws you put forward are.

[Kristina Michaud, Bloc, Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Ms. Michaud, you have one minute left.

[Kristina Michaud, Bloc, Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC]

Let's go back briefly to the situation of indigenous people. You say that we need in-depth reform, but I see that measures have been put in place recently, in 2019, including a memorandum of understanding.

Have you seen any results from these initiatives, particularly for indigenous youth?

[Dr. Ivan Zinger]

I didn't quite understand the question.

[Kristina Michaud, Bloc, Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC]

In the spring of 2019, there was a memorandum of understanding on the release of indigenous prisoners. For example, they were given identification documents before their release so that they could access health services, among other things. Have you seen any results?

[Dr. Ivan Zinger]

The Correctional Service responded to the observations contained in a chapter of the previous Auditor General's report and put forward some initiatives to somewhat expedite the management of indigenous offenders entering penitentiaries. Currently, the Correctional Service is accelerating its process with respect to classification and programming.

Indeed, it has a positive effect, but you have to look at these results a little critically. It's often said that those who are prioritized in this system are the lower-risk offenders.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Dr. Zinger, could you complete your response, please?

[Dr. Ivan Zinger]

I'll stop here.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Thank you.

For the benefit of all members, it's helpful if you—including the witnesses—occasionally glance at the chair, because I don't wish to cut members off, but as Mr. Harris will know, I can do that.

Mr. Harris, please.

[Jack Harris, NDP, St. John's East, NL]

Thank you very much, and thank you for the implicit warning.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

I know you well, Mr. Harris.

[Jack Harris, NDP, St. John's East, NL]

Thank you, Dr. Zinger, for joining us. I have to say, as a recently returned member, that I'm not current with all the goings-on in Correctional Service Canada, but I've looked at your report and I admire the dedication, objectivity and compassion that you bring to this job.

Having read your report, noting the statutory obligation of CSC to take all reasonable steps to ensure that the penitentiary environment, the living and working conditions of inmates and working conditions of staff members are safe, healthful and free of practices that undermine personal dignity, it's a shock to me, returning to this situation. I should say that it must be a shock to Canadians to know how far we are from the standard that your report indicates. It's worrisome to me and it would be more worrisome if Canadians weren't equally concerned about making changes to this.

Let me ask you a couple of questions. You referred to the population of inmates with mental health problems. It's a major issue across the country. We know that many inmates find themselves in prison as a result of their mental health problems, in large measure in some cases. Do you have a number that could tell us what per cent of the prison population is affected by this, to the extent that, as you suggest, they ought to be treated differently as a result of their mental health condition? Is there a number that you could put on it in terms of a percentage?

[Dr. Ivan Zinger]

I can tell you that it's always difficult to talk about prevalence because, depending on what you're trying to target, you can come up with different numbers. If you talk about the prevalence of inmates upon admission who have any mental disorder, including substance abuse disorder, you're looking at 75% to 80%. If you are looking at a much more narrow definition, people who have what was previously known as axis I disorders—people who basically are disconnected with reality and may be suffering from schizophrenia, major depression or things of that nature—you're looking at 7% to 8%.

I think the best prevalence data that I use is this: Upon admission, how many people need psychological or psychiatric services? That number is about 29%, which is way off the charts compared with the general Canadian population.

[Jack Harris, NDP, St. John's East, NL]

Can you indicate to what extent you believe they're actually getting the help they need?

[Dr. Ivan Zinger]

This government has certainly provided more funding for access to mental health care. I think Correctional Service Canada is still catching up, because the numbers are growing and very significant. I will tell you that my greatest worries are for those small numbers of inmates who are acutely ill or suicidal or chronically self-harming in a serious way. Those are the ones I would like to see moved to external psychiatric secure facilities. Our best estimate would be that there would be about a dozen women who would meet the criteria and about two dozen men who would also meet that definition. They have no place in a correctional facility. They are patients first.

[Jack Harris, NDP, St. John's East, NL]

Thank you.

You've reported, and we're aware of, the overrepresentation of indigenous prisoners in our prison population. The numbers, I think, are around 30% nationally. My own experience, having gone to law school in Alberta, is that in certain parts of the country that number would be considerably low in terms of the prison population.

Do you have statistics by province? Could you say whether there are certain parts of the country where that overrepresentation is even more acute?

[Dr. Ivan Zinger]

Yes, you're absolutely right. Where there are higher concentrations of indigenous people in the population, there you'll see that percentage is much higher than 30%. I'm happy to provide the committee with some tables with a breakdown by region. I can absolutely provide that to the committee.

[Jack Harris, NDP, St. John's East, NL]

Dr. Zinger, have you had a look at the Truth and Reconciliation Commission's calls to action? Between numbers 30 and 40, there is a series of recommendations that the government implicitly adopted in 2015, one of which was to reduce the overrepresentation of aboriginal people over the next decade.

That was 2015. Is there any evidence that any of these recommendations or calls to action is being implemented, and is there much to show for it?

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

That's a very important question. Unfortunately, Mr. Harris has left you no time to answer it.

Once again, I would encourage members to occasionally look at the chair so that we can maintain the clock.

Mr. Morrison, you have five minutes.

[Rob Morrison, Conservative, Kootenay—Columbia, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you, Dr. Zinger, for being here today.

You briefly mentioned earlier part of the question I have. In your report you highlighted that CSC allocates only 6% of its budget to the community supervision program. When you consider that 40% of the offenders are in the community, how do you explain that?

[Dr. Ivan Zinger]

With supervision in the community, there are different levels of risks. Some individuals require close supervision and some don't require as much supervision. They have served their time and are law-abiding citizens contributing to society.

It's a question of how you manage risk in society. This is something that I think the commissioner could probably answer better than I can to justify why just 6% is invested in the community.

[Rob Morrison, Conservative, Kootenay—Columbia, BC]

Do you think it's adequate?

[Dr. Ivan Zinger]

No, I don't think it's adequate. I think that as a society we are spending too much on incarceration with very little return. I'm concerned that we could do a heck of a lot better with the money we are currently spending. I think it's a question of value for money here.

[Rob Morrison, Conservative, Kootenay—Columbia, BC]

Okay. I also notice that in your risk assessment findings you supported the need for an independent...or would you support the need for an independent review of the rehabilitation programs, given that there's such a huge impact on reintegration and the safety of the public?