Evidence of meeting #2 for Public Safety and National Security in the 43rd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was report.
A video is available from Parliament.
9:45 a.m.
Correctional Investigator of Canada, Office of the Correctional Investigator of Canada
We have the Parole Board of Canada that makes those decisions. If the board views that offenders do not pose an undue risk and can be managed in the community, then that's part of the answer. I would suggest that you ask that question to the chair of the Parole Board or the commissioner of Correctional Service Canada as to why those numbers are rising.
Maybe I should address the case of Marylène Lévesque. Would you like me to address this? Is that of interest to the committee?
9:45 a.m.
Correctional Investigator of Canada, Office of the Correctional Investigator of Canada
Okay.
First, I would like to take the opportunity to provide sincere condolences to the family and friends of Ms. Marylène Lévesque.
I have two preoccupations with this case. The first one is that this is an extreme case. It's a very rare event when somebody who committed murder is released and commits murder again. To my knowledge, this only happened more than eight years ago. The preoccupation for me is that those extreme cases test the system as a whole. There is always the danger that those extreme cases can result in bad policy and bad law. Bad cases make for bad policy and bad law. We should be conscientious about that extreme case. That doesn't mean it shouldn't be looked at very carefully, because it's a blatant failure of the system.
My second preoccupation flows from the first one. When such an extreme case happens, what kind of investigation do you need to put in place? For me, it has to be a very credible investigation. That requires independence, certainly, and also the level of investigative tools and powers associated to ensure that you get to the bottom of it. What I find in this case is that we have an investigation that's going to be conducted that was convened by the commissioner and the chair of the Parole Board jointly. It's basically an internal investigation. In terms of the process, I think that is problematic. When you have an allegation of wrongdoing where you possibly will be looking at negligence in carrying out their duties, you shouldn't ask the agency responsible for that to investigate themselves. That is never done in policing. That should never be done.
I've made similar recommendations when egregious cases happened in corrections. Last year I made the recommendation to the Minister of Public Safety that when there is death in custody following a riot or following a use of force by correctional officers, these things should be investigated independently, with all the right tools. That can only be done, in my view, under the Inquiries Act, not by an internal investigation.
9:50 a.m.
Conservative
Doug Shipley Conservative Barrie—Springwater—Oro-Medonte, ON
Thank you, Dr. Zinger. I'm very short on time. Thank you for your answer.
We agree that there should be an external investigation. Who specifically do you think should be doing that investigation?
9:50 a.m.
Correctional Investigator of Canada, Office of the Correctional Investigator of Canada
It should be called upon the government under the Inquiries Act, completely independent. Your committee could then review an independent...where there is no perception or risk of being self-serving.
When I reviewed the investigation conducted by the service on Saskatchewan Penitentiary, I made the call that, following a riot in December 2016, the investigation was self-serving. It didn't get to the bottom of it. Again, it's a question of whether, when there is serious wrongdoing, you ask the agency that may have been responsible for it to investigate itself. The answer should be no.
9:50 a.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal John McKay
We'll have to leave the answer there. Thank you.
Mr. Iacono, you have five minutes.
9:50 a.m.
Liberal
Angelo Iacono Liberal Alfred-Pellan, QC
Dr. Zinger, do you recall the name of the similar incident that occurred eight years ago?
9:50 a.m.
Correctional Investigator of Canada, Office of the Correctional Investigator of Canada
I think it was in New Brunswick. I would have to dig it out.
9:50 a.m.
Liberal
Angelo Iacono Liberal Alfred-Pellan, QC
Please. If you can provide that to the committee, that would be great.
Mr. Zinger, your report mentions the need to find alternatives to incarceration, without mentioning any examples whatsoever. What do you mean by that?
Do you have any solutions in mind? Do you think you could get some inspiration from other countries, such as the Scandinavian countries, which use electronic bracelets, for example?
9:50 a.m.
Correctional Investigator of Canada, Office of the Correctional Investigator of Canada
There is no denying that there may be alternatives that could flow from changes to the Criminal Code. Conditional sentences could certainly be one of the avenues to consider. However, this is upstream from the correctional system and my responsibility is to the federal correctional system.
I mentioned three groups of individuals who would benefit from a different way of doing things. I talked about the elderly and aging people in prison who could be released without causing undue risk to society. I talked about indigenous people and the healing centres that could be created in partnership with indigenous communities. I also talked about those who are acutely mentally ill, suicidal or severely self-injurious. These are three groups for whom things could be done differently.
9:55 a.m.
Liberal
Angelo Iacono Liberal Alfred-Pellan, QC
In your report, you state that prisoners do not have sufficient food on a daily basis, but you also mention the excessive waste of food in prison. This seems contradictory. Can you clarify that?
9:55 a.m.
Correctional Investigator of Canada, Office of the Correctional Investigator of Canada
After five years, what has happened in terms of food management is quite extraordinary. There are more and more inmates who use their own money to go to the canteen because they want to avoid eating the food offered by the penitentiary. Some wardens have told me that they rarely cook for 100 per cent of the prison population, but for a quarter or a third less. What we are finding is that inmates are using their money—minimal amounts—to buy food to supplement their diet or to replace entire meals.
I'll give you some examples. The last place I was at was Millhaven. In the past, they used to sell products like chocolate bars and potato chips in the canteen. Now the canteen is the equivalent of a small IGA. You can buy canned salmon, tuna, spaghetti sauce, sardines, mackerel, all kinds of things. As for frozen products, you can buy chicken wings, chicken breasts, and so on.
9:55 a.m.
Liberal
Angelo Iacono Liberal Alfred-Pellan, QC
Fine.
I'm going to give my last minute to my colleague Mr. Sikand.
9:55 a.m.
Liberal
Gagan Sikand Liberal Mississauga—Streetsville, ON
Thank you.
Other than the EIM, are there any other strategies that would be effective? Is there any merit to staff-run committees that could be implemented?
9:55 a.m.
Correctional Investigator of Canada, Office of the Correctional Investigator of Canada
I'm sorry. I didn't—
9:55 a.m.
Liberal
Gagan Sikand Liberal Mississauga—Streetsville, ON
Besides the EIM, what other strategies would be effective, and is there any merit to staff-run change?
9:55 a.m.
Correctional Investigator of Canada, Office of the Correctional Investigator of Canada
EIM is the engagement intervention model. The question is that the implementation of it is problematic. We've made the recommendation. It's actually an Ashley Smith recommendation we made many years ago that was finally put forward and the service finally accepted in the case of Matthew Hines. In response to our report, they changed the actual model. It's supposed to promote de-escalation of tension. It's supposed to result in more reassessment of the situation. It's supposed to also ensure that when you have a medical emergency or a person who has some mental health issues, you respond differently with the assistance of health care. That's all good in theory, but in terms of practice, we haven't seen the results of this yet.
9:55 a.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal John McKay
We're going to have to leave the answer at that. Mr. Sikand, I think, has another round in any event.
Mr. Paul-Hus, you have the floor for five minutes.
9:55 a.m.
Conservative
Pierre Paul-Hus Conservative Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
We were talking about the Prison Needle Exchange Program.
You mention in your report that there are few requests at the moment, fewer than we would have expected from the prisoners. There is also agreement that syringes are used to inject drugs that are obtained illegally.
Don't you think that's why prisoners don't ask for it, because they don't automatically want to be recognized as drug importers?
9:55 a.m.
Correctional Investigator of Canada, Office of the Correctional Investigator of Canada
In line with best practices applied in other countries internationally, this type of program is managed by the health centre. Nurses and doctors are in charge of it.
The Correctional Service of Canada has implemented another way of doing things that focuses on safety issues.
Risk assessments must be completed before a candidate can benefit from the program. This is basically why there are very few inmates who take part in it or want to take part in it, because the focus is not on harm reduction or health issues.
10 a.m.
Conservative
Pierre Paul-Hus Conservative Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC
All right.
The fact remains that what the inmates are injecting is still a drug that was brought in illegally.
Basically, we wouldn't need needles if drugs were not coming into the penitentiaries.
To deal with this, we've already talked about having full-body scanners. They would prevent, I am told, the entry of more than 90% of the drugs that are brought in by visitors. They would be scanned automatically.
Don't you think we should focus on that and speed up the installation of the scanners?
I'd also like your opinion on the clear opinion expressed by Correctional Service Canada officers. In their view, the Prison Needle Exchange Program is very dangerous and they have been denouncing this project from the beginning. They are also lobbying for scanners to be available as soon as possible.
What do you have to say to our officers about this?
10 a.m.
Correctional Investigator of Canada, Office of the Correctional Investigator of Canada
I'd say there's a lot of misinformation out there. Countries that have implemented such programs have seen, for example, a large reduction in incidents of accidental needle sticks.
I think people are misinformed about this. But the reality is that assessments from other countries show a significant reduction in such incidents. This does not put the safety of officers at risk at all.
10 a.m.
Conservative
Pierre Paul-Hus Conservative Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC
We'll let them know.
I'll turn the floor over to my colleague, Mr. Morrison.
February 25th, 2020 / 10 a.m.
Conservative
Rob Morrison Conservative Kootenay—Columbia, BC
Thank you.
Dr. Zinger, I have an issue that I have had a bit of experience with, and I'm wondering if you would support this. It is maybe a separate program focusing on drug rehabilitation. Crystal meth addicts, for example, rather than going directly into the general population in the prison system, could go into another system that focuses specifically on a rehab program.
I know crime reduction is pretty easy; you just put people in jail. Crime prevention is very difficult, and it's a long-term program. I know the U.K. has a similar program, because I've been over there and have investigated that. I'm wondering if you have any thoughts on that, or what your opinion is, please.