Evidence of meeting #7 for Public Safety and National Security in the 43rd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was communities.
A video is available from Parliament.
NDP
Commr Brenda Lucki
The work we did with that community and in connecting with the hereditary chiefs was unprecedented, and we had actually lots of discussion, and operationally it was a success.
NDP
Charlie Angus NDP Timmins—James Bay, ON
But then why the need for “lethal overwatch”? The definition of “lethal” is that it is capable of causing death.
Commr Brenda Lucki
When we use certain types of resources—for example, when we have public order individuals—they are unarmed. They have no arming, but just in case something happens or goes sideways, they need to be protected, so they have what's called armed overwatch—
NDP
Charlie Angus NDP Timmins—James Bay, ON
Well, certainly, but isn't that the difference between the sniper watch and police just having their normal sidearms, as you would have at a normal event?
Commr Brenda Lucki
The specialized team, the emergency response team, was in the background. There were armed members in their uniforms, overwatching that incident.
Liberal
Conservative
Rob Morrison Conservative Kootenay—Columbia, BC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
I'd like to thank Gail and Dennis for being here. I'd also like to thank the commissioner for staying for the extra hour.
I have two questions, one on HR and one on contract policing.
Commissioner, you brought up a concern that I have with regard to hiring the right people. The minister brought up a similar issue, about hiring people who understand the cultural diversity of communities. My concern is this: When you recruit individuals who understand and embrace cultural diversity and want to embrace small communities, for example, wouldn't the hiring of new RCMP recruits be much better if the hiring was done by the provinces and territories and they took the lead based on regional priorities?
Now, I know how the system works. I'm asking if it would be better if they based hiring on a point-based system that suits that province and not Ottawa.
Commr Brenda Lucki
You raise an excellent point. There is a project we are looking at. We used to have a special constable program, for example, whereby people from the community could get modified training and go back to their community. We sort of got away from it, because they said it was a tiered system, but I think with the right checks and balances.... I know from talking to the territories that they are very anxious to look at that.
We also have a great recruiting project going on in Nunavut, for example, for people who don't have access to acquire some of the skills that are needed to be a police officer. We are actually training them in Nunavut to be prepared to come to our training academy. They don't have access to a lot of driving, for example, so we're providing that access.
I think we need more than one way to get into the RCMP, not just the traditional way.
Conservative
Rob Morrison Conservative Kootenay—Columbia, BC
That's a good answer.
Here's another good question on contract policing.
As the RCMP does not have a minimum standard for contract policing, has the RCMP ever thought of having a minimum policing standard so that you can do rural policing reviews, for example, in different contract provinces to see whether the minimum standard of policing is adequate? I hear so often of the strain and stress of smaller detachments, and that there just are not enough people there, yet the only relief is through the province. That's how the contract works.
Could the RCMP have a minimum standard to say to the province, “If you want to contract an RCMP member, you need to have this number of people”?
Commr Brenda Lucki
You raise another excellent point, in the sense that our business intelligence is not strong in that area.
We have what's called the police resourcing methodology. It is so labour-intensive to figure out how many police officers we need in a given area. In a place like Vancouver or Toronto it's very easy to do, because it's in one geographical location. When you're dealing with the north, where somebody might have to go on a snowmobile or a boat to a complaint, it's very hard to measure the time and distance geography. They might have to fly in to another community, because we don't have police detachments in every community.
Doing that ratio is very labour-intensive. Divisions can only do two of those a year. We need better intelligence to say how many people or police officers we need to adequately police a community; absolutely.
Conservative
Rob Morrison Conservative Kootenay—Columbia, BC
Okay.
With regard to the management review system, or MRS, in the RCMP, I don't know why, but since 2018 the management reviews have stopped in British Columbia. If you don't have a management review, how do you possibly help detachments or units that need direction?
Let's pick racism, for example. Let's pick diversity. I am not too sure I understand the thought process behind not doing management reviews. How are your management teams addressing the needs of these detachments that need help before you get to a directed review, which means you're in trouble?
Commr Brenda Lucki
At the detachment level, as far as I know, they have their annual performance plan, which includes the unit-level quality assurance process. They review each activity to see whether there are risks that need to be addressed, and it's supposed to feed up into the management review.
Conservative
Commr Brenda Lucki
I'm going to look into that. I commit to that. I know when I was district officer in three different districts, we had that nailed down. As much as we didn't like it, we had it.
Liberal
Liberal
Greg Fergus Liberal Hull—Aylmer, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair. It is very kind of you to give me this opportunity to ask a question.
Thank you very much, Madam Commissioner. We are happy to have you here.
First of all, I would like to say that I recognize the very difficult work that the RCMP and all its members do every day. It is not easy being a police officer. It is not easy to have spotlights shone on cases that are the exception, perhaps. I understand that it is very difficult, but that is the burden that you and all members of the RCMP have to bear. It is normal, in a democracy, that our police services have to undergo this kind of attention.
I do not want to repeat Mr. Anandasangaree's question, but I too was a little confused by your definition of systemic racism when you were asked that question in early June. I sincerely believe that people can change. They have to be given a chance to evolve and change their minds. So, to you I say, well done!
In connection with Ms. Michaud's question, could you once again provide me with a definition of systemic racism? You mentioned the notion of duration and the history of the RCMP. You acknowledged that systemic racism has existed.
Do you believe systemic racism still exists in the RCMP today?
Commr Brenda Lucki
First, thank you for your appreciation for our members, because it means a lot. They're working hard each day in the communities they serve.
Yes, there's absolutely systemic racism. I can give you a couple of examples that we've found over the years.
For example, we have a physical abilities requirement evaluation. It's an obstacle course. There is a six-foot mat, and you have to do a broad jump. When we put the lens on it and reviewed that physical requirements test, evidence told us that the average person can broad-jump their height. Of course, how many six-foot people do we hire? There are people in all different cultures who may not be six feet tall, including a lot of women, who would not be able to get through that type of test.
Liberal
Greg Fergus Liberal Hull—Aylmer, QC
That would be systemic discrimination, but I'm trying to think of systemic racism.
Commr Brenda Lucki
We have some questions, for example, in our aptitude test.
You know what? I might refer this to Gail, because that is Gail's specialty in the HR world. A lot of it has been brought out in our recruiting process.
