Public Safety Committee on June 23rd, 2020

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Thank you, Mr. Uppal.

[Commr Brenda Lucki]

Those were a lot of numbers. Sorry.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

We'll go to Mr. Anandasangaree, my second fellow Scarborough caucus member.

[Gary Anandasangaree, Liberal, Scarborough—Rouge Park, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'd like to start by acknowledging that we're all gathered here on the unceded lands of the Algonquin people.

Madam Commissioner, I was one of the many people who were very excited upon your appointment two years ago. The last several weeks have been very difficult, and very difficult for racialized people. There are many names, starting with George Floyd, and there are many others in Canada I can name as I outline the tragedies that have taken place at the hands of the police. What is very disappointing is your lack of clarity in acknowledging that systemic racism existed when the question was posed to you, and equally troubling was the failure of your deputy commissioner in Alberta.

I think what's difficult for me today is to understand whether the RCMP, and you and your office and your team, understand the urgency that is before us. This is a moment in history where the world is moving. I have seen people demonstrating on the streets who've never gone out before, who were complacent and who thought that, even if they were affected by racism, they would not speak because they were afraid of the repercussions. I've seen so many people, especially young people, who have been on the streets demanding action.

How do you respond to this urgency? It's not the recruitment and training. Those are important, but those will take time. How do you respond in order to gain the confidence of the public, particularly racialized people, notably indigenous and black people?

[Commr Brenda Lucki]

If this moment in time isn't a wake-up call, then shame on everybody, including the RCMP. When I said I struggled with the definition of systemic racism, it wasn't a disacknowledgement of it. When we look at the systems and processes in place.... When I became commissioner, the first thing I did was to bring in a gender-based analysis plus expert. That person sits at our senior executive table for every decision we make so that they can put that lens on every decision we make. It's made a huge difference in our decision-making.

I have widened my lens and changed my perspective in the sense that there is systemic racism in the RCMP. I had a long talk with Deputy Commissioner Zablocki, who, again, didn't want to paint all the members with the same brush.

When we had a discussion, I have to say, I asked Gail Johnson, who is on the screen, to share her personal lived experience with our senior executive group and our senior management team across the country so we could get a better understanding so that we would not have just our own perspective on something that we may or may not have lived.

[Gary Anandasangaree, Liberal, Scarborough—Rouge Park, ON]

There's a lot of talk about reimagining policing. Some are calling for defunding it. Many are suggesting that, given number of incidents involving people with mental health challenges.

How do you reimagine police? How do you reimagine the RCMP to be a service of the future, a service that can actually serve all Canadians?

[Commr Brenda Lucki]

When I think of defunding, I think more about funding all social services. Having policed in the north myself, I know that in many communities there is no addictions counselling. There are no mental health crisis centres. In times of crisis, we are the first response. Even if there were those services in those areas, when a person is in crisis, at three o'clock in the morning when somebody is wielding a knife and is suffering from a mental health crisis, that is not the time to bring in mental health practitioners. It's time for the RCMP to go in and to get that person calm, get them to a place of safety and get them the help they need. Often it's not in the community. We actually will physically escort them on the plane and bring them to a place where they can get the help they need.

It's not about defunding; it's about funding everything that goes along with it. I think we can work better with our mental health practitioners. We had a model, for example, in Grande Prairie, Alberta. I'm familiar with it because I was in charge of that district. A mental health practitioner was on the mental health de-escalation team in Grande Prairie. They would attend the call and stay in a safe location, but as soon as it was safe, that person was in.

We have to look at those various different models and not be stuck in a traditional response mode.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

You have 30 seconds, Mr. Anandasangaree.

[Gary Anandasangaree, Liberal, Scarborough—Rouge Park, ON]

Thank you, Madam Commissioner. I don't think I have time for another question.

One thing I do want to get on the record is the issue of mental health. We have seen a number of fatalities that have been the tragic results of police either doing wellness checks or responding to something else involving someone with a mental health challenge on the other side, in which things have not gone well. We definitely do need to reimagine policing, not just in the sense of looking at funding other programs but also to change policing the way it currently exists.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Thank you, Mr. Anandasangaree.

Ms. Michaud, you have the floor for six minutes.

[Kristina Michaud, Bloc, Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you for being here, Madam Commissioner.

You said the following in a statement on June 12: "Throughout our history and today, we have not always treated racialized and Indigenous people fairly."

You also acknowledged that systemic racism exists within the RCMP. However, the first time you were asked the question, you were reluctant to say so. What made you change your mind afterwards?

[Commr Brenda Lucki]

I don't call it changing my mind. When I talked about systemic racism I kept thinking of all the things...I wasn't looking at it from a historical point of view, I was looking at it through today's lens and thinking about all the things that we have done to eliminate it, and the work still to be done.

I looked at it from a different perspective in the sense that there are things in our recruiting process, in our hiring processes, that exclude certain people, and I can give examples.

It wasn't that I was devowing it, I was struggling with the definition at that point, because I had heard many different ones. When I put it to policing, I was looking at it through a different lens from what I had seen, but I would never say that there is no systemic racism, and for that I apologize.

[Kristina Michaud, Bloc, Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC]

Thank you, Ms. Lucki.

You also said that federal police officers who refuse to comply with the core values of the RCMP should be held to account for it. Are you aware of any officers under your authority who have not complied with those values? The way it is worded suggests that you would finally wake up and recognize some behaviours.

What will the officers be held to account for, if ever you discover improper behaviour?

[Commr Brenda Lucki]

Any RCMP member who does not live up to our core values will be held to account, point, final, no question. We have obviously a range of disciplinary measures from operational guidance to dismissal.

We need to look at hiring the right person, training them properly to be empathetic and to be compassionate, to live to our core values. We are introducing character-based recruitment so that we can ensure that we get the right person. It's not just about that because you might get the right person, but if your training is all for naught, that's not going to help. It has to be from the time they start to the time they retire.

We've brought in foundations of leadership, a pilot project that was brought in at the end of last year and the beginning of this year. There are several modules, one includes unconscious bias racism, conflict management and having difficult conversations, because we can have great employees but if they are not properly supervised or properly led, that's yet another issue.

It has to be from all angles and it's something that we need to work on and get better at, but we are definitely putting the GBA+ lens on our recruitment. We did a full GBA+ on our recruitment and we are now starting a GBA+ on our entire cadet training program.

[Kristina Michaud, Bloc, Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC]

The Prime Minister recently stated that the changes you have already begun to implement within the RCMP will go a long way in addressing and reducing systemic racism across Canada.

What changes have already been implemented? What changes will be implemented in the coming weeks and months to counter this scourge?

[Commr Brenda Lucki]

When I got into the chair as commissioner, I introduced Vision 150, and that's our road to the 150th anniversary in 2023.

The focus was based on people within the RCMP and community. The premise was that if we focus on our people, we'll have better operations and a safer Canada. Under that we put four pillars: our people, our culture, our stewardship and our policing services. There are initiatives under each one of those pillars.

All of it is so that we can make our culture more tolerant, more inclusive and more diverse, so that we can be reflective of the communities that we serve. They need training, they need to make sure that they.... How do we get rid of their unconscious bias, or sometimes conscious bias, when they are policing? That's the most difficult part of policing because when you are policing groups of people, and with the same types of incidents, it's very easy to get an unconscious bias.

How do we get people to recognize that, acknowledge it and be more empathetic? Bringing in, for instance, the blanket exercise through the training academy is one such area. The culture and humility course is very powerful. Bringing in a trauma-informed approach to dealing with victims was part of our missing and murdered indigenous women and girls actions. We have quite a few actions underneath that so when we speak about.... We established a national office of investigative standards and practices so that those investigations will be dealt with the same way regardless of what individual is the victim, or what individual is the criminal.

We need to get better at our restorative justice referrals so that we eliminate people getting into the justice system, especially as a youth...pre-charge restorative justice. We need to get better at the referrals.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Unfortunately, we'll have to leave it there, Madam Michaud.

Mr. Angus, you have six minutes. Go ahead, please.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair. Thank you, Commissioner.

This past weekend 400 people in my little town marched for Black Lives Matter. This is a transformative moment, and I have to be able to look at them and say that they can trust that their voice is being heard around the world and that change will happen.

For you, you need to be able to tell your officers that when we deal in a transparent manner with issues that are completely unacceptable, the morale of the force will be strong. It really comes to moving beyond good words to clear actions that we can point to.

I want to ask you just a few questions on that, because when an incident occurs, we need to know that the process in place can deal with it and that whatever the result of that is, we can hold it up and say that this was the investigation.

I did meet with the Colten Boushie family and I learned a lot. I learned about the trauma the mother suffered when she was basically treated like an accomplice when her son was dead, and that the evidence and the body of the boy were left out in the rain for 24 hours, which wrecked the case. There were RCMP members on a Facebook group saying Colten Boushie got what was coming to him.

These are the allegations that we saw that came out in court. The Civilian Review and Complaints Commission looked into it—you have the report—but when I spoke to indigenous advisers in F Division, they hadn't heard anything about what the RCMP thinks of it or what they're going to do about it. They say it's like dealing with a black hole, and that black hole is about the lack of trust.

When is that report going to be released?

[Commr Brenda Lucki]

They started that investigation in 2016, and we received the report at the end of January 2020. They put a lot of thought into that report and into that investigation, and it is very important that we do the same when we look at those recommendations.

I personally have read the report already. Usually I wait until our analysts go through it and do a scrubdown, but I wanted to give my attention to it early on so that there would not be unnecessary delays, because often what happens is that we look at it and see what we've done and what we can do, and there's a lot of work. Do we agree with the recommendations or don't we?

I personally looked at the report. I see no issue with most of the recommendations, and they will make us a better police agency. My goal is to have that report out in the fall.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

Okay. Let's talk about another report that came forward. This was in New Brunswick seven years ago, on the RCMP's heavily militarized response to the first nation community defending itself against fracking. I was very shocked, because I've dealt with indigenous protests and the RCMP, and seeing sniper crews with sniper rifles was something that I found really shocking.

A report was done. That was seven years ago. I believe you've had the report for most of your tenure. When is that report going to be released?

[Commr Brenda Lucki]

The report is no longer with the RCMP. It's with the CRCC. We are finished. We have done our review, and the CRCC got it a couple of weeks ago.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

Okay.

[Commr Brenda Lucki]

There are a lot of recommendations in that report. Again, that report was investigated over six years. There were two or three terabytes of information that had to be reviewed, and we wanted to make sure that we did the proper review, because people deserve that.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

I get that. I guess the issue is that with the Wet'suwet'en, we saw a repeat of what happened in New Brunswick. Again the RCMP was heavily militarized with sniper rifles. They were targeting unarmed protesters, and the reports that we saw from the duty commanders talked about the need for “lethal overwatch”.

We're having a discussion about demilitarizing and de-escalating when people are being confronted with sniper rifles, exactly the same pattern that we saw in New Brunswick, and the New Brunswick report is still not out, and there's been nothing done on the Wet'suwet'en, so how do I go back to indigenous communities and say, “No, this is not an occupying force that's going to threaten you if you stand up for your land”?

Sniper rifles and lethal overwatch— do those not represent something that is much more militarized than necessary in dealing with a nation-to-nation relationship?

[Commr Brenda Lucki]

I can say that in our response to the indigenous protests in northern B.C. there was no use of force with people. People were arrested.