Public Safety Committee on June 23rd, 2020

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Go ahead, Ms. Johnson.

[Gail Johnson, Chief Human Resources Officer, Royal Canadian Mounted Police]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair, for the question.

First, I'd just like to say that when we talk about systemic racism, we understand it to mean that systems that exist in organizations over a long time disadvantage certain racialized indigenous groups, so institutional racism differentially impacts people.

We do have some examples. I will say that when we were looking at our recruitment process and what was required for our folks when we tried to recruit people from the north, because of remote locations, the need for a driver's licence, etc., they had a difficult time coming to write the aptitude test and having a driver's licence and leaving to come and sit for the processes we had. We recognized that this was disadvantaging that group.

We've changed the way we do that process now. We've made it easier. We go there and we do certain activities there so that we can make sure they have the opportunity to apply to become police officers. That's an example.

[Greg Fergus, Liberal, Hull—Aylmer, QC]

The minister mentioned that when he was chief of the Toronto police force, he took great efforts to make sure that the management of the police force looked like the diversity of the city in which he served.

Is there any intention for the RCMP to make its management look like the diversity that exists in Canada?

[Commr Brenda Lucki]

Absolutely. We work very hard to ensure that we increase the diversity at all levels. We're doing better, but it's not good enough.

We need to do it better, and we need to bring people up and develop them from within the employees we already have, because if we don't.... When it comes to the next commissioner, if we don't develop anybody with diversity, how are we going to offer up people who can represent our communities?

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Thank you, Mr. Fergus.

Mr. Paul-Hus, you have five minutes.

[Pierre Paul-Hus, Conservative, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Madam Commissioner, at the beginning of the meeting, I spoke of various reports that have been released over the years. There have been two major reports.

The first was released in 2014 and is entitled “Invisible Women—A Call to Action: A Report on Missing and Murdered Indigenous Women in Canada”. In the report, various recommendations have to do with the police.

The second report is 700 pages long and was released in 2019 following the major National Inquiry into Missing and Murdered Indigenous Women and Girls. I did not bring it with me—for obvious reasons. Recommendation 16.32 of that report calls on police services, particularly the RCMP, to ensure that there is Inuit representation among sworn officers and civilian staff.

Have you had time to act on that recommendation?

[Commr Brenda Lucki]

Thank you for your question.

We have started a special recruitment process in Nunavut for Inuit people. We've identified people interested in the RCMP and we are working with them. Right now we have seven. It's a pilot project. Seven people were recently identified, in January, and we are giving them the skills that they don't have access to, like driving, or if they require certain educational components that can help them with their learning of police studies, we are giving them that learning in Nunavut before they go to the RCMP training academy. We will look at every single piece that we can do in Nunavut to help them succeed, and we will do it there instead of bringing them down to the RCMP training academy.

We are also looking at a troop—and we've done this before—specifically with Inuit candidates or indigenous candidates in the north, as opposed to people south of the 55th parallel, because they have very unique needs, and it's very difficult for people who have never been away from home to all of a sudden be sent to a training academy in Regina for six months.

Again, we have to be open and flexible for all of those diverse options in order to attract the most diverse population.

[Pierre Paul-Hus, Conservative, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

Thank you.

My next question is for you or Ms. Johnson.

We have already heard that, among Indigenous communities in particular, young people or others who wanted to be on the police force were being harassed by their own communities. They were told that they were with the white people and that they were traitors to their community.

Does that kind of thing still happen today?

[Commr Brenda Lucki]

I can't speak specifically to whether they've been harassed in their own community, but—and I think somebody mentioned it earlier—it's all about people trusting their police. If they don't trust the police, it doesn't matter if you get people from that community; they're still the police. They're still wearing a uniform. They're still part of that system.

We need to look at that, but we also need to provide them with the skills and knowledge to come back to their communities, because I think a community-driven response is much better than an Ottawa or an RCMP top-driven response.

[Pierre Paul-Hus, Conservative, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

I am going to take advantage of your presence here today to ask you a question about the COVID-19 pandemic.

We are still in the midst of managing this pandemic. Various provinces have begun to lift the lockdown. In your opinion, is the situation under control? Are you worried about a second wave in the fall?

[Commr Brenda Lucki]

In the RCMP when COVID-19 hit, we made some very difficult decisions within our organization, and those have probably contributed along with what's happened recently to the morale. We cancelled all leave. We cancelled all training. People had to quarantine before they could go up north, because we wanted to be as responsible as possible and not bring COVID-19 up to the north.

Within our organization, those difficult decisions have paid off. Out of 30,000 employees, we've had only 27 employees test positive for COVID, 17 of whom were on the front line.

Will there be a second wave? I am not a doctor, but I don't think we can take anything with COVID-19 for granted.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Thank you, Mr. Paul-Hus.

Madam Khera is next.

[Kamal Khera, Liberal, Brampton West, ON]

Thank you, Madam Commissioner.

There have been some calls for the reconstructing of the RCMP to remove contract policing or to remove the designation “Royal” or to rename the force in other ways that would distance it from Canada's past. Is the RCMP aware of these calls, or do you have any mechanism currently in place to examine them?

[Commr Brenda Lucki]

I think under our modernization efforts, as I said, no stone will be left unturned, and one of them is a review of contract policing.

I do have to say, having now been in this position and having been exposed to police agencies from around the world, that our motto, as much as it is sometimes criticized, is the envy of most police agencies because of its flexibility and nimbleness in times of crisis.

I can give you numerous examples. One was that of the manhunt in northern Manitoba, where we could bring resources in and not make the rest of the province vulnerable because we had to move resources around. We could bring fresh resources in. There were the fires in Fort McMurray, and a terrorism file that we had in Kingston. It takes a lot of specialized resources, which you can't afford to have in each area. We could draw from each province and bring those specialized resources in, deal with the file, and then they could return to their place.

It is a great model, but it needs to be resourced accordingly, and we have to make sure that it's in the proper footprint with the proper resources.

Thank you for that question.

[Kamal Khera, Liberal, Brampton West, ON]

Thank you. I'd like to give the rest of my time to Mr. Greg Fergus.

[Greg Fergus, Liberal, Hull—Aylmer, QC]

Thank you very much, Ms. Khera.

I have a quick question. You mentioned at the beginning of your opening comments that 99% of RCMP interactions involve non-lethal interventions. Is that correct?

[Commr Brenda Lucki]

Actually, it's 99.9%.

[Greg Fergus, Liberal, Hull—Aylmer, QC]

It's 99.9%, even higher.

Wouldn't that then make us rethink the approach that we take? I mean, should we plan for that 0.1% or should we have police officers approach a situation in a way that would calm spirits down and clearly de-escalate things, or do they need always to go in fully armed and ready to go and raise the tension?

[Commr Brenda Lucki]

That's a great question. Thank you for that.

They have to be prepared for everything, but your point is well taken. In 2016, we introduced de-escalation and crisis intervention for that very reason. Our calls related to mental health are growing exponentially. We were looking at the statistics, and there are close to 10,000 calls a month or more just on mental health crises.

[Greg Fergus, Liberal, Hull—Aylmer, QC]

That said, are we putting too much emphasis or too much of a burden on the RCMP to handle those kinds of telephone calls, or is it better for us to look at having other services that are better funded, such as more specialized services on mental health or on drug addiction that could work in co-operation with the RCMP to respond to those situations?

[Commr Brenda Lucki]

In a perfect world, I would say yes.

When I was the district officer in northern Manitoba, in Thompson, we policed half of the province, and in that entire half of the province, there was not one addictions centre, so anybody who needed addictions counselling had to go down south. Therefore, I would say yes, in a perfect world, if those resources were available, but when you look at Toronto or Ottawa or the Lower Mainland, it's a different story than it is in the majority of the areas we police.

In Nunavut, we have seven or eight two-person detachments, and there are no social services. Any time social services are needed, people usually need to go to Iqaluit, because those other communities do not have them. The police are the first responders for all of those, and that's the reality. It's not a fair reality, but it is reality.

[Greg Fergus, Liberal, Hull—Aylmer, QC]

Could I presume, then, that you would agree that we need a big rethink in terms of how to increase security in the larger term, the larger understanding of Canadians, by taking a look at who should specialize in what and what resources should be directed as a result?

[Commr Brenda Lucki]

There are a lot of schools of thought. People are saying that maybe when we are recruiting, we should be recruiting people from the social services industry and bringing them over to the police. That's one aspect, integrating the services together for a better response.

Looking at our training academy, you mentioned focusing on de-escalation, if, in fact.... As I said, 0.073% of our interventions are with a use-of-force option. We need to put that balance back on de-escalation skills, communication skills and connecting with people in crisis.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Thank you, Mr. Fergus.

Madame Michaud, you have two and a half minutes. Then we'll have Mr. Angus for two and a half minutes.

[Kristina Michaud, Bloc, Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Madam Commissioner, do you have with you the figures or statistics for the past few years on the number of times the RCMP have stopped persons from cultural minorities or Indigenous people, compared to non-Indigenous people?