Evidence of meeting #16 for Public Safety and National Security in the 43rd Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was bragdon.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Executive Director, Texas Offenders Reentry Initiative
We have a very small recidivism rate, 11%, which is—
Conservative
Tako Van Popta Conservative Langley—Aldergrove, BC
I'm just going to cross-examine you. Is that because you get the easier cases or because you're so good?
Executive Director, Texas Offenders Reentry Initiative
Actually, the U.S. Department of Justice pushed us right out there in 2006. We had just started in 2005, and the buzzword was “Let's go after non-violent offenders.”
This is only from my experience, but what we have found is that non-violent offenders are involved in drug addiction offences that are running through our county jails cyclically, and violent offenders are typically those involved in crimes of passion that are not cyclical in nature. When we were pushed out there for the anti-gang initiative that our U.S. Attorney General was piloting in six U.S. cities, we were able to get into not just non-violent offenders but also violent offenders. We see the whole gamut, and there's a whole spectrum.
We don't cherry-pick. We don't get the cream of the crop. We have to take it case by case. It's very much as Mr. Bragdon said—this is not a one-size-fits-all. If you can see it case by case, some of the universal issues are housing, education, employment, family reunification and health care. Those are things that you guys are already outlining as common issues.
Conservative
Liberal
Liberal
Kamal Khera Liberal Brampton West, ON
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you, Mr. Bragdon, for your tremendous work on this bill.
My question is for Ms. Latimer. First, allow me to thank you for the tremendous work that the John Howard Society does.
Ms. Latimer, in 2015 you published an article declaring that it was time to move beyond this “tough on crime” rhetoric. You noted that while “electoral success” can be gained by this narrative, it is inconsistent with the facts. You also noted that improving “community-based corrections” and “prisoner rehabilitation” will “protect society against recidivism” by ensuring that fewer prisoners will leave custody “angrier” and that they will be better equipped with perhaps more social and mental health supports.
I'm hoping that you can speak a bit more on your thoughts here on the harms associated with this “tough on crime” rhetoric we hear and on how we can actually make systemic change. Perhaps you can talk a bit about how we can address the overrepresentation of indigenous and Black Canadians in prisons and why it's so important for the government to partner with not-for-profits like yours, like the John Howard Society, to address this.
Executive Director, John Howard Society of Canada
I'd be happy to talk about that. I think it takes us away from the focus of this bill a bit, which is really focusing on what I would call rehabilitation and reintegration. The quantum of the penalty and how that debt to society should appropriately be discharged is probably not the focus of this bill, but this bill will go a long way in terms of reducing crime by preventing recidivism.
I think the Texan experience is similar to ours. Where you see heavy recidivism is in people who are addicted and committing lower-level property crime, where they're feeding the habit by committing crimes. You really need to get a handle on those addiction issues.
What you see coming out of federal prisons is that about two-thirds of the people in federal prisons are there for violent crimes. Violent crimes scare people, but unnecessarily so if you actually look at the recidivism rates. Those who are serving life sentences probably have the lowest recidivism rates of anybody when they get into the communities. You just need a slightly different approach for people who have exhibited violence.
It's quite a significant challenge to deal with those who are the cyclical property offenders. That's a real challenge in terms of breaking that cycle, but we need to figure out the appropriate supports to put in place depending on the individual's criminogenic factors and what would lead them back into crime. Certainly, some of the basics—being poor, not having a place to live, not having your mental health issues addressed—are all problems, and this bill really stands a good chance of building a framework to support an effective re-entry of people into the community. I think it's really good.
I'd be happy to talk to you at length about whether “tough on crime” approaches generally work well, but this reintegration support really does.
Liberal
Pam Damoff Liberal Oakville North—Burlington, ON
Thank you.
Ms. Latimer, we know that a lot of women end up back in prison for breach of parole, where they've been told they can't drink or they can't associate with certain people, and because, as you were mentioning, addictions, mental health supports when they get out and go down the wrong path.... We only have a minute, but do you have any specific recommendations you could give us now on some of the things that you'd like to see to improve the rates of recidivism?
Executive Director, John Howard Society of Canada
I think you have to work with each individual. I agree that some people who have experienced a lot of trauma in their past need more supports. Re-entering society takes a lot of courage and a lot of strength. If you've been hurt a lot in the past, you may not have the strongest foundation from which to take the right steps. We need to really marshal certain types of resources around those who have experienced a lot of trauma and a lot of pain. Otherwise, we're not going to get very far. I do think we need—
Liberal
Pam Damoff Liberal Oakville North—Burlington, ON
What are your thoughts on transitional housing? It's not a halfway house, but something that's between a halfway house and actually being out in the community, where you can still be supported.
Executive Director, John Howard Society of Canada
I think it's extremely important. I think having adequate housing, and particularly supportive housing, for people coming out of prison is absolutely key. Ex-prisoners don't always understand that they have housing issues. If they feel they have a couch to sleep on in somebody's house, they may not feel they're insecurely housed or have a problem. But those couches in people's houses create power dynamics and an inability to really assert themselves and choose a path that's different from what the household represents.
Having adequate housing is so important to support people.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal John McKay
We'll have to leave it there.
Thank you, Madame Damoff.
Ms. Michaud, you have two and a half minutes.
Kristina Michaud Bloc Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
My question will be for Mr. Bragdon this time. It's a slightly more focused question on the bill, which is intended to develop or implement a federal framework for this issue. When a federal framework is put in place, the question of respect for Quebec's and the provinces' areas of jurisdiction always comes up. This framework must set up pilot projects and collaborative projects with the provinces and the various groups.
Mr. Bragdon, how do you see this framework and how can we ensure that we don't encroach on the jurisdiction of Quebec and the provinces?
Conservative
Richard Bragdon Conservative Tobique—Mactaquac, NB
Thank you, Ms. Michaud, for your very good question.
I definitely want to emphasize the importance of this respecting provincial jurisdiction. Obviously, we know that those who are closest to the ground and closest to the situation within their provinces, the provincial governments and the provincial departments of public safety, know far better their area of jurisdiction than those of us at a federal level. I think our role is to put out a national framework of ideas, a collaboration of thoughts and best practices, and then enable and empower those provinces to contextualize the program to their region.
For La Belle Province, Quebec,
it would be important for them to be able to contextualize it to the needs of Quebeckers, of the Québécois. It's the same thing for the province that I come from, New Brunswick. We're a unique, small maritime province, which I say is an advantage when it comes to pilot programs. We're nimble and small enough to be able to roll out a pilot and be able to measure outcomes perhaps quite quickly. Again, the situation and how it may apply to Alberta would be different from how it would apply to New Brunswick or Quebec.
Definitely, respecting provincial jurisdiction is absolutely a key part of this as well. By no means is it a one-size-fits-all approach or some grand program that will work in every province. No, this is about fostering an environment where individual provinces can roll out projects and potentially pilots that would aim at reducing recidivism in their jurisdiction.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal John McKay
Thank you, Madame Michaud.
Mr. Harris, you have the last question, for two and a half minutes, please.
NDP
Jack Harris NDP St. John's East, NL
Thank you, Chair.
Thank you, Mr. Bragdon. Congratulations on putting forth a very fine and important bill.
The one question I have—