Public Safety Committee on Nov. 2nd, 2020

[Dr. Ivan Zinger]

The answer is yes. It's not just my office that tracks this; the Correctional Service of Canada has very good data on it. I am happy, however, to provide any sort of breakdown of the regional numbers. That's fairly easy for us to do, and it's easy also for the Correctional Service of Canada to provide you those numbers.

[Pam Damoff, Liberal, Oakville North—Burlington, ON]

I think 44% is a horrible number, but if you look at it by region, it's even worse, and I often remind people of that.

My next question is this. Indigenous and Black Canadians are overrepresented in the prison system, and it's only getting worse. They are overclassified, and they don't have access to programming or early release.

Our committee made recommendations, the status of women committee made recommendations and you've made recommendations to address this issue. SIUs aren't working as they're legislated or intended. Dr. Dubé has highlighted this just recently, and you've highlighted a number of issues at CSC.

I'm wondering, Dr. Zinger, whether you think it would be helpful for the minister to set targets for CSC and require public reporting. It seems that we keep recommending things, but nothing is improving.

[Dr. Ivan Zinger]

Absolutely. It's not just my office that made these recommendations; they are now being endorsed widely. When we speak about indigenous offenders, for example, or people who are incarcerated, recommendations that my office has made have now found their way into the Truth and Reconciliation Commission of Canada in its calls to action. We can find them in the Auditor General's report of 2016, “Preparing Indigenous Offenders for Release”. We found them in your committee, dated June, 2018. We found them in the status of women committee in June 2018 as well.

Let us not forget also that there are many recommendations in the National Inquiry into Missing and Murdered Indigenous Women and Girls that basically cut and paste recommendations straight from my reports and those of my predecessor, Howard Sapers.

I think at some point it's not just a case of dismissing me as an ombudsman—by the way, I am part of the enabling legislation for the Correctional Service of Canada—but now it's also a question of maybe not respecting democratic values, because duly elected individuals have made those recommendations and inquiries and commissions have been set up by elected officials to look into issues and make recommendations. All of this seems not to be acted upon by the Correctional Service of Canada, so I am concerned.

[Pam Damoff, Liberal, Oakville North—Burlington, ON]

How do we ensure that these things happen? Do you think the minister has to set public targets for what they need to do? Do you have suggestions for how we can push the Correctional Service of Canada to actually start implementing these recommendations?

[Dr. Ivan Zinger]

Absolutely. It was a best practice for the Minister of Public Safety to publicly issue the mandate letter of the commissioner of the Correctional Service. The mandate letter was great.

I have no problem with that mandate letter. The sole problem with it is that there are no dates for deliverables. It contains vague commitments. I think time frames are important, as is a list of clear deliverables. I think we would move a little bit more quickly if there were clear guidance in those mandate letters to ensure that there is accountability in the end.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

You have a little less than a minute, Ms. Damoff.

[Pam Damoff, Liberal, Oakville North—Burlington, ON]

Okay, so I probably don't have more time, but Dr. Zinger, is there anything else that you want to add?

[Dr. Ivan Zinger]

One thing the minister has done is write to this committee. I certainly hope the committee will initiate a study on a really important issue that has been neglected for a very long time, and I hope that if a recommendation comes from your committee, it will be acted upon pretty quickly.

[Pam Damoff, Liberal, Oakville North—Burlington, ON]

Okay. Thank you very much, Dr. Zinger.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Thank you, Ms. Damoff.

Ms. Michaud, you have the floor for six minutes.

[Kristina Michaud, Bloc, Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Zinger, thank you for being with us and for publishing this report.

We received the message from the minister in which he asks us to undertake a study on sexual violence in the prison environment. Of course, the Bloc Québécois supports the idea of undertaking such a study. Fighting sexual violence is one of our priorities, and it should also be one of the government's priorities.

On the other hand, you have studied the issue as part of your report, and your recommendations are quite clear. Don't you think it's time to implement those recommendations, rather than do more studies on the subject?

[Dr. Ivan Zinger]

The answer is yes, absolutely.

Indeed, I would have preferred that the government respond to my recommendation by saying that it would ask the Department of Justice to consider legislative options, with a clear commitment to introduce legislation by a specific date, such as next spring. That would have been ideal. It would have better reflected the nature of the problems that exist in our penitentiaries. Such a clear measure would have been an impeccable response to my report.

[Kristina Michaud, Bloc, Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC]

You rightly said you were a little disappointed with the response of the minister and the government in general to your previous annual report, last year's annual report. What about this report?

The minister has already responded with his commitments. Are things less vague than the last time? Are there more commitments for which a specific deadline has been set?

Do you think that the pandemic argument is likely to be used? For your part, you did say in your report that you were able to conduct your study despite the pandemic. You went out there and you were able to do your job. Despite this, do you think there is a risk that the pandemic argument will be used to explain the lack of action?

[Dr. Ivan Zinger]

I think that's a question you're going to have to ask the Correctional Service of Canada.

However, it is clear to me that the response to my report is far from satisfactory. I understand that the pandemic has made the situation very difficult for the Correctional Service and that the Correctional Service has made it a priority to respond to the pandemic. However, we must continue. You can't just put everything else aside.

This report raises issues related to inmate safety and rehabilitation. I am thinking for example of the investigation we did on learning. This is a matter of public safety. A lack of programs and education affects public safety because, as we well know, education and vocational training are important in reducing recidivism rates in the community. As a result, society is far better off when the Correctional Service of Canada provides timely rehabilitation programs.

[Kristina Michaud, Bloc, Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC]

On the subject of the study on sexual violence, you proposed the implementation of a series of legislative measures following a zero-tolerance approach. You mentioned the example of the Prison Rape Elimination Act, which was passed in the United States almost 20 years ago. Clearly, Canada cannot claim to be ahead of the curve in this area.

What contributed to the success of this U.S. law? Can you tell us more about it?

Why is it necessary to enforce similar legislation in our prisons in Canada?

[Dr. Ivan Zinger]

I think the Correctional Service of Canada is where the U.S. was 20 years ago, which is that very few prisoners report social coercion or sexual assault.

The United States has responded to this problem with strong legislation. We should seriously consider this kind of mechanism.

The U.S. Department of Justice has an obligation to conduct anonymous inmate surveys to ensure that the number of cases is declining and that the measures in place are improving from year to year. A variety of programs, services and surveys are mandatory. Outcome verifications, called audits, are even carried out, and financial resources can be allocated on the basis of success. In fact, federal prisons in the states that successfully pass their audits receive additional funding.

There are all kinds of things in terms of training and education for staff, but also education for inmates. As I said, it's very well developed.

Two years ago, I was in Louisiana. As a simple visitor in a Louisiana prison—

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

I'm sorry, Dr. Zinger; you'll have to hold with that example, as Madame Michaud is over her time.

Mr. Harris, you are next. You have six minutes.

[Jack Harris, NDP, St. John's East, NL]

Thank you, Chair, and thank you, Dr. Zinger, for your presentation and report.

In reading your report, I'm a bit shocked to hear that the minister has had this report since June, and it's now the end of October. He suggests that this committee should help write some legislation based on existing legislation that's 20 years old.

Wouldn't it make more sense for the minister to direct the people who developed the legislation? We'll have a look at it as a committee, and we'll be happy to do that, but you lay out the road map yourself, as I see it.

Starting with the whole notion of a response by the minister and by the CSC, you talk about the issues of sexual violence and coercion. We have a zero-tolerance policy for that in our institutions, but they're not counting it. They don't have any prevention programs. They don't have any way of looking after it and they don't have anything in place that you would expect to see if they were taking it seriously.

In fact, you found no evidence to support the claim that they have a zero-tolerance policy. Wouldn't it make more sense for the minister to listen to your report and issue directives to the Correctional Service of Canada to actually put these things in place? You have some recommendations here, but is there any evidence that the minister has taken any action to require directives or policies to be put in place, for prevention programs to be put in place? Has any of that happened, other than the mandate letter, which doesn't provide any specifics?

[Dr. Ivan Zinger]

It would have been my preference if the response to my recommendations would have had the minister stating clearly that he directed the Department of Justice to draft legislation accordingly. That would have been my preference, absolutely, but that's not the response I got. The response I received is that the minister isn't excluding legislation, but he has made the request to your committee to study it and make recommendations, including assessing the merits of something similar to the Prison Rape Elimination Act of the United States.

[Jack Harris, NDP, St. John's East, NL]

This committee has other things on its plate, such as studying racism in Canadian policing, the use of systemic racism and the use of risk assessments in federal prisons. The Globe and Mail just recently reported on the failure to abolish solitary confinement, which the Supreme Court of Canada requires and legislation requires. An oversight committee was ignored for a year as it tried to get answers.

All of these things are going on. Meanwhile, we have a department that should be able to tell the Correctional Service of Canada how to behave itself and how to implement policy. Is this something we should be making a priority when the minister already has some very good advice from you as to what direction to go and how to do that? Isn't that something that could be, and perhaps should be, already implemented to some extent?

[Dr. Ivan Zinger]

I will tell you that the list of issues you have just mentioned are issues on which my office made many recommendations over the years. Certainly I can point to, for example, this report on a case study of diversity in corrections that dates back to 2013, which was picked up by a UN committee working group on the treatment by Canada of Canadians of African descent, which repeated recommendations by my own office.

There is lots of it. I so wish that, yes, there would be more movement on my recommendations, so that down the road there would be fewer class action lawsuits or articles in The Globe and Mail or responses of the Supreme Court of Canada. We have been saying that actuarial tools used by the Correctional Service are perpetuating systemic discrimination in corrections. We'd been saying that for years prior to the Supreme Court of Canada's decision. Now we're two years out after the decisions have been rendered, and there is still no definite action on the part of the Correctional Service of Canada.

[Jack Harris, NDP, St. John's East, NL]

Dr. Zinger, we hear about oversight all the time, and we have, through your good offices, lots of oversight. We have the Auditor General. We have the Supreme Court of Canada. We have commissions like the missing and murdered aboriginal women's committee. We have groups like the status of women committee. We have committees at this House making recommendations. We have so much oversight that the problems are obvious and in clear sight. What we really need is action, is it not?

I was asked today about what kind of oversight we need. I said that we don't need oversight anymore; we need action by the government on the problems that have been identified.

I won't ask you to agree with that. I think you've already said as much.

I don't know if I have enough time, but—

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

You have less than 15 seconds.

[Jack Harris, NDP, St. John's East, NL]

Well, then I'll just tell you what I was going to ask. You have given some good examples on how some of this sexual coercion and violence can be prevented. I would love to hear you explain some of those issues so that people can understand that it actually can be done.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

You'll have to explain that at another question.

That completes our first round of questions.

On our second round of questions, is we have Mr. Van Popta for five minutes, Madam Khera for five minutes, Madame Michaud for two and a half minutes and Mr. Harris for another two and a half minutes. I have yet to be advised as to the second Conservative questioner. Finally, we will have Mr. Lightbound for five minutes.

With that, we have Mr. Van Popta for five minutes.