Public Safety Committee on Nov. 2nd, 2020

[Jack Harris, NDP, St. John's East, NL]

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you, Mr. Blair and your fellow witnesses who came with you, for your presence tonight. You have a lot on your plate, so I'll get right down to business, starting with the RCMP and the mass murder in Nova Scotia back in April, which was a great tragedy.

Everyone was expecting an immediate public inquiry to be called, and in fact there were noises about that in the days following the tragedy, and of course there were questions and suspicions about the history of the perpetrator's connections with the RCMP. People wanted to get to the bottom of all that, as well as the response that took place in the communities.

It took a very long time and then eventually there was going to be a review and no inquiry. The suspicion was that the government, particularly the federal government, was interested in avoiding too much scrutiny of the RCMP, and the public of course, the victims, wanted to get to the truth and thought that a public inquiry was the best way to do that.

Why did it take so long to make a decision and why did you do a review and not an inquiry? Was there any hint of trying to protect the RCMP from scrutiny in that decision-making process?

[Bill Blair, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

I understand the question.

Let me take this opportunity to assure you and the people of Nova Scotia, and particularly the families of those victims, that there's absolutely no intention whatsoever to hide anything.

Even in the immediate hours of the aftermath while the criminal investigation was still ongoing, I had already reached out to the Province of Nova Scotia—and of course they have inquiry authorities, as does the federal government. There were other circumstances where reviews had taken place, where the work can be done.

We reached out, for example, to retired Chief Justice MacDonald to head that up. That work began right from the outset, and the full intention was to make sure that we got all of the answers the families needed, and we also sought advice and recommendations so that the response could be improved—

[Jack Harris, NDP, St. John's East, NL]

If I may interrupt, that was the whole point of a public inquiry, where witnesses would be giving evidence under oath and all of the information would be made public. That didn't happen, and it took a long time for the federal government to make up its mind.

Can you give me a direct answer to the question: Was there any attempt by the Government of Canada to avoid direct scrutiny of the RCMP?

[Bill Blair, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

No, it was absolutely to the contrary, Jack. The intention was to answer all of the questions that arose from that terrible, tragic event, and to examine everyone's involvement, including the RCMP's. There was no intention to hide anything.

I will tell you that it is also important that a serious, significant criminal investigation was taking place. I know there was a lot of speculation and, actually, some false information put out that raised the level of anxiety. We listened very carefully to those families. It was clear that they really needed to hear and see a full public inquiry. We responded to that, and we've taken the steps. I do understand that it did take some time, after one of the panellists stepped away, to replace them.

[Jack Harris, NDP, St. John's East, NL]

Thank you, Minister.

We hope that the public and the victims' families get the answers they need as quickly as possible, but also as thoroughly as possible, too.

Still in Nova Scotia, there were recent incidents with the Mi'kmaq lobster fishermen being attacked, harassed, beaten and their property being damaged. There was a warning from the chiefs in the Atlantic provinces to the government that there were threats happening and that this was expected, yet there was no proper RCMP response.

Why was that?

[Bill Blair, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

Well, Jack, let me be clear. First of all, as you well know, the police jurisdiction in Nova Scotia is the responsibility of the Nova Scotia government. Seeing the level of conflict and concern that was arising there, I actually reached out to the Nova Scotia government and discussed with the Attorney General the resources required to keep the peace there and to enforce the law.

[Jack Harris, NDP, St. John's East, NL]

But there was a failure of presence, even knowing that this was being threatened and about to happen, and even when the RCMP was present there and watching it happen, instead of intervening and protecting the peace.

Why was that?

[Bill Blair, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

First of all, I think it's important to understand that the role of the police there is primarily to maintain the peace and to prevent offences from taking place, and, when these do take place, to conduct investigations and lay charges. Jack, that has actually happened. The person responsible for assaulting Chief Sack has now been charged. The person responsible for setting fire to that van has now been charged.

Frankly, I think there was an issue of adequate resources on the scene to make sure that the police were able to do their job of keeping the peace while others worked to resolve the issues in dispute; making sure that the law was upheld; and, when people committed offences—as they did—making sure that they be held to account. We saw that the night of that terrible, tragic fire. The police have obviously now identified a person of interest. They are conducting other investigations. I'm very confident that people will be held to account for the crimes that were committed.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Mr. Harris, you only have about 20 seconds left. Maybe we can add it to your two and half minutes in the next round.

That completes the first round. Our second round starts with Mr. Motz, for five minutes. Then we have five minutes for Madam Damoff, two and half minutes for Madame Michaud, two and half minutes for Mr. Harris, five minutes for Mr. Kurek and five minutes for Madam Khera.

Mr. Motz, you have five minutes, please.

[Glen Motz, Conservative, Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB]

Thank you, Chair. Thank you, Minister for being here.

Minister, the Eglinton West Crips were taken down recently by a joint police investigation. They seized 31 firearms; seven kilograms of cocaine; two kilograms of fentanyl; two kilograms of meth; other drugs including heroine, oxycodone, Percocet and MDA; along with $300,000 in cash.

How many of those arrested were licensed firearms owners, and how many of the firearms were legal in Canada?

Minister, no, I'm not going to ask you to answer that because we already know the answer. You and I, as well as all Canadians, know that the answer to that question is “none”. None of those arrested were licensed firearms owners, and none of those firearms were legal in this country.

Since coming into government in the last five years, your government has spent over $4 billion more on public safety departments and agencies than in the previous five years, yet with all that extra funding, since 2015, every crime statistic tracked by Statistics Canada has increased. The crime rate is up. The crime severity index is up. Gang shootings are up. Gang homicides are up. Domestic violence is up. Drug use, drug addiction and drug overdoses are up. Police resource challenges are up. Border security concerns are up. Cybercrimes are up; and I could go on.

Canadians have lost trust in you and your party to protect them, regardless of the huge sums of taxpayer money that you continue to pour on the problems. Your plan is obviously failing, Minister.

Why is your massive spending failing to protect Canadians and reduce crime, as they expect their governments to do for them?

[Bill Blair, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

One thing I would point out, because you began talking about some of the outstanding work that was done by the police in Ontario to deal with guns and gangs in their jurisdiction, is that we committed $327 million to that effort, including $65 million in the province of Ontario.

I would contrast that, Glen, with the investment that the Conservative government, in 10 years, made in dealing with gun and gang violence in Canada. In comparison to the $327 million that we invested in a robust police response to deal with those criminals and that violence, in 10 years of Conservative government, it was not a nickel: Not a single dollar was allocated to support those police efforts.

I appreciate that you don't think we should make investments in policing, but we do, and that's—

[Glen Motz, Conservative, Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB]

Minister, that's not at all what I said and that's not at all what I asked.

I'll move on to the next question for you.

Angus Reid's poll, before the pandemic, suggested that half of Canadians said crime has risen in their neighbourhood in the last five years. Two in three Canadians don't have faith in the criminal courts. There is a 30% increase in people reporting that they were victims of crime. Recent reports and news show that Canadians in downtown Vancouver no longer consider it a safe place to live. They're asking where their public leaders are and why they aren't doing more.

In Toronto this year, there have been well over 400 shootings and nearly 200 people killed or injured. So far this year, shootings are up 10%, alongside a 20% increase in shooting deaths. Clearly your policies are not working, as I said previously, and your plan is failing Canadians across the board.

Given that fact, what new plans are you and your government proposing that will finally address the issues around rising violent crime rates, gang crime, gang violence and the killings that plague our communities? Minister, what is a plan that will actually improve public safety across this country?

[Bill Blair, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

Thank you very much, Glen.

These are very important questions, and I really appreciate your giving me an opportunity to speak to them.

First of all, I believe that financing and supporting an effective police response to deal with guns and gangs in our community is important. You didn't, but we do. We made that investment.

We also said that we were going to strengthen gun control in this country. By the way, if you want to quote various public opinion polls, Canadians overwhelmingly support strengthening gun control. We have taken some fairly significant steps to remove weapons from our society that have no place here.

We're going to do more, Glen. We're going to bring forward new legislation that will strengthen our response at the border, for example. That doesn't just mean new offences, new authorities and new penalties. It's new investments, $89 million, that we've invested and continue to invest in the RCMP and our border services officers to make them more effective in countering the firearms smuggling into this country. These are offences that you, on the committee a couple of years ago, referred to as paper crimes that shouldn't have a penalty. I disagree.

We're also going to make it more difficult for people to gain access to firearms through criminal diversion and theft. We're taking steps to strengthen our gun control in this country to make it more difficult for criminals to get access to guns. I believe that effective gun control is an important element—

[Glen Motz, Conservative, Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB]

Well, Minister, your plan really isn't working today, that's for sure.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Unfortunately, we're going to have to leave it there.

We have Madame Damoff, for five minutes, please.

[Pam Damoff, Liberal, Oakville North—Burlington, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you, Minister and officials, for being here.

Minister, the numbers coming out of the correctional services are dismal. There are rising numbers of indigenous and black Canadians in prison. SIUs are not functioning as they were legislated and intended. Dr. Doob presented absolutely horrific stats on the SIUs. The correctional investigator highlighted a number of issues that continue to need attention: employment training programs, patient advocates, the use of dry cells and more.

Having been on this committee for five years, I too find it frustrating to ask CSC the same questions time and time again, without change. Earlier today, I asked Dr. Zinger about implementing targets and mandatory reporting for CSC. He responded that the mandate letter provided to the commissioner was good but that it needs timelines and further refinement.

I'm wondering, Minister, if you would consider updating her mandate letter to provide those timelines and put targets in place.

[Bill Blair, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

Pam, these are really important questions.

Commissioner Kelly is on the line. I'm reminded that I have all of the agency heads here with us today. I don't want to take their opportunity to respond, but I am in agreement with you that it's important. I think if you want to achieve something, what's measured is what's achieved. I think there needs to be clear transparency so that people can see....

I want to also commend the work of Dr. Zinger. I work very closely with Dr. Zinger. I've known him and worked with him for a number of years. I think his advice and his observations are very important and very helpful. I listen very carefully to what he has to say.

Very clear expectations need to be defined in a number of different areas, and not just in corrections but right across the entire public safety portfolio. I think we need to have timelines clearly defined. We're working through that, Pam. I'm in agreement with that. I think it needs to be open and transparent.

I believe, by the way, that the commissioners do as well. They want to be effective. They see the challenges, frankly, of many of our systems within the criminal justice system producing really bad results for indigenous people and racialized people. We know we need to do better.

[Pam Damoff, Liberal, Oakville North—Burlington, ON]

Thank you, Minister.

Commissioner Lucki, Colten Boushie died in 2016. His family filed a complaint in 2016. When the RCMP ruled that officers had acted properly, the family filed another complaint to the Civilian Review and Complaints Commission.

At your last appearance before this committee, during the summer, I asked you about the report on the Colten Boushie case. At the time you said, “I can't emphasize enough the importance of such a review.” As well, “The CRCC has done extensive research and a great job on the review. We need to give the same consideration to the review. I'm planning to have that review done by the fall of this year.”

It's now November 2020. When can we expect your response?

[Commissioner Brenda Lucki, Commissioner, Royal Canadian Mounted Police]

The CRCC completed their public interest investigation in January 2020 and provided us thereafter with the interim report. Obviously, we're in the process of reviewing the high volume of relevant material. Given the complexities of the recommendations and findings by the CRCC, a bit of time is required to prepare a thorough and well-founded response.

[Pam Damoff, Liberal, Oakville North—Burlington, ON]

Commissioner, with all due respect, one of the reasons that report didn't get you until January 2020 is that there was a delay in the RCMP providing the CRCC with information. Is the family going to see the report anytime soon?

[Commr Brenda Lucki]

Yes. As promised previously, as you mentioned, I intend on having that response completed by the end of this fall.

[Pam Damoff, Liberal, Oakville North—Burlington, ON]

Okay. Thank you.

Commissioner Kelly, we allocated $500 million to implement SIUs. This was a piece of legislation that I was proud to pass, but as we've learned, things have not gone as they should have. I'm wondering if you could let us know how this $500 million has been spent and how much has been spent creating these new mental health isolation units or whatever they're called. Originally, my understanding was that the money was going to programming and additional costs needed for staffing.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

You have about 30 seconds.

[Anne Kelly, Commissioner, Correctional Service of Canada]

Okay.

Actually, I'd really like to be able to go back to Dr. Doob and tell a bit of the story, because there is more to the story. In terms of the money allocated, for the first year, 2019-20, it was around $48.5 million. Some monies went to health, some to human resources, and some to SIUs. We had to hire correctional officers, program officers, parole officers and nurses. We had to train the staff, which included the correctional training program for CX—

[Pam Damoff, Liberal, Oakville North—Burlington, ON]

Commissioner, could we get a breakdown sent to the committee of how much was spent on infrastructure and how much was spent on everything else?