Public Safety Committee on Nov. 23rd, 2020

[Mitch Bourbonniere]

Absolutely. I would say the more resources that can be afforded to community groups, the better. I totally agree with Ms. Maynard that it's not about under-resourcing a community; it's about actually resourcing it in the absence of a heavy police presence. To have the police step down and have community groups step up is the answer, I think, and that will take federal resources.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Thank you, Ms. Damoff.

Madame Michaud, you have six minutes, please.

[Kristina Michaud, Bloc, Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

My first question is for Mr. Bourbonniere.

A newspaper article was recently brought to my attention, and I would like to hear your thoughts on it. The story is quite unbelievable, not to mention unacceptable, and is all the more reason why the committee should be doing this study and looking for solutions.

Allow me to explain. A man around 30 years old was kidnapped, so to speak, in Val-d'Or, Quebec. Here's an excerpt from the article:

What happened to Anichnapéo has a name. They call it a “starlight tour,” when police pick up an Indigenous person for being disruptive, drunk or simply being in the wrong place at the wrong time. Once they have them in the patrol car, they drive the person outside city limits and force them to walk back.

This is something that apparently happens all over Canada, as well as in Quebec. I am curious as to whether you have heard people in your organization refer to these so-called starlight tours.

I know there is no magic wand, here, but what should be done to keep this kind of thing from happening and ensure those in positions of power stop discriminating against members of certain communities?

[Mitch Bourbonniere]

I apologize for not responding in French, although I did understand you as you spoke in French.

That horrible phenomenon of police picking up people, especially people of colour and indigenous people, and driving them out of the city in the wintertime, only to leave them there, really peaked in the 1990s. Four young indigenous men actually died, froze to death, just outside of Saskatoon in the 1990s.

Certainly when I started this work, we would hear this regularly and routinely from some of the young people we worked with. It has not occurred, that we know of, in Winnipeg in recent years.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Just for your help, Mr. Bourbonniere and Madam Maynard, at the bottom of the screen is a globe. You can press the globe to get simultaneous English or French translation.

Madam Michaud, go ahead, please.

[Kristina Michaud, Bloc, Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

This is also for Mr. Bourbonniere.

You work with indigenous youth.

In your view, how are they impacted by the way society treats them, particularly police and people in positions of power?

How does it affect their future?

[Mitch Bourbonniere]

That is an excellent question. Thank you.

Actually, there are two schools of thought that come out of the police towards indigenous youth. One is suspicion and mistrust and always believing that these young people might be criminally involved, sometimes with absolutely no reason or evidence. There's another thought that comes toward indigenous people that's equally as hurtful, harmful and devastating, and that is dismissing such critical incidents as missing people, missing indigenous women and girls, and blaming lifestyle. There are always assumptions made that if someone is missing or if someone's in crisis, they're to blame. There isn't the same desperation to honour a request for help when it is an indigenous person rather than someone who's non-indigenous in Winnipeg.

Those two negative experiences that come toward the young indigenous people get ingrained. They internalize it. The police are a symbol. The RCMP are a symbol. They are an authority. They are powerful. They have power. They have privilege. When young people feel so much negativity towards them, such suspicion and mistrust, and their concerns are not taken seriously when they are in crisis or in trouble or are missing, it leads them to believe they are “less than”. That is unconscionable.

[Kristina Michaud, Bloc, Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC]

Thank you.

We have heard from a number of witnesses that the solution may lie in the training of police officers. In other words, officers should receive training on mental health, addiction and other relevant issues that would help them in the field.

I appreciated what Ms. Audette said last week—police officers can't be superheroes. They can't be fully trained on everything.

Do you think organizations like yours can play a supporting role in the field to help police?

[Mitch Bourbonniere]

Is that for me or Ms. Maynard?

[Kristina Michaud, Bloc, Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC]

That question was for you, Mr. Bourbonniere.

[Mitch Bourbonniere]

Yes, we can train people to do the mental health checks and to be on scene for non-violent types of situations so that we can be helpful and the police can take a step back. That would be incredible.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Mr. Harris, you have six minutes.

[Jack Harris, NDP, St. John's East, NL]

Ms. Maynard, listening to you talk about lessening the amount of contact with racialized people, particularly Black people, reminds me of my own thoughts as a young law student studying criminal law. I concluded at one point that the only crime was coming to the attention of the police, so it reminded me of that thought that I had when first encountering all of the laws and how they were enforced.

You said that reducing contact is a good idea to save individuals from being over-policed. Is that your point when you advocate defunding or removing police from certain situations? Can you confirm that this what you're talking about?

[Robyn Maynard]

That was one part of it, reducing their scope from different situations, including the proactive policing of places where Black people live.

[Jack Harris, NDP, St. John's East, NL]

Is community policing not a solution, in your view?

[Robyn Maynard]

The studies on community policing are incredibly clear, particularly the recent study published by Dr. Rutland. Although originally many communities had aspirations of a positive relationship with the police, they ended up retrenching and even increasing police profiling with racialized surveillance, and arrests of Black people in those communities became more extensive. In effect, it was an expansion of policing in another format, as opposed to reducing those harms. It did not achieve the goal of reducing systemic racism within policing, not at all.

[Jack Harris, NDP, St. John's East, NL]

We only have a short time, so I want to put the same issue to Mr. Bourbonniere. You talked about having a different form of contact with the community. In Winnipeg, I understand that probably one-tenth of the population is indigenous and that the bias in policing is pretty obvious, as you pointed out.

We were told by Madame Audette last week that she believed, as the Missing and Murdered Indigenous Women and Girls Commission found, that every place where there is a substantial indigenous population, there ought to be direct involvement with the police force. At the very minimum, there should be an advisory committee, and then perhaps move to indigenous policing units.

Is that something that would make any sense in an urban setting like Winnipeg, in your view, or would it be preferable that the work your groups do be funded as some sort of auxiliary to that?

[Mitch Bourbonniere]

My overall opinion is, in a way, both. There should be less involvement by police where it's a space of power and authority situation. They should step down and not be seen in that way. They can, perhaps, have more involvement within the community in a more proactive way.

[Jack Harris, NDP, St. John's East, NL]

You mentioned more indigenous police officers. Would you support...? We've been talking about indigenous policing in communities of indigenous people where they would do the policing themselves. In an urban setting, is that possible? Could there be a unit, for example, of indigenous police force officers that could work in the communities where there are large indigenous populations? Is that a possibility as a model, or is there any kind of model that you would see as being beneficial?

[Mitch Bourbonniere]

I would say more recruitment of indigenous police officers, but also, once they are trained, putting them in positions as consultants and mediators between the police and the community as well.

[Jack Harris, NDP, St. John's East, NL]

That would be part of the path to less bias in policing because of the involvement of indigenous people at that level.

[Mitch Bourbonniere]

Yes, and again, there should also be more partnerships with community groups.

[Jack Harris, NDP, St. John's East, NL]

Would you see that as something that ought to be able to be funded by the Government of Canada as part of its reconciliation model and its responsibilities for indigenous persons generally?

[Mitch Bourbonniere]

Yes, I believe the federal government can act as a role model for provincial and civic governments to show that this is a priority.

[Jack Harris, NDP, St. John's East, NL]

They can be a role model and perhaps even fund it directly, or at least offer that funding.