Public Safety Committee on April 18th, 2024

[The Clerk]

Yes.

[The Chair, Liberal, Heath MacDonald]

We'll continue, please.

[Frank Caputo, Conservative, Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC]

Thank you.

Ms. Gill, thank you for being here.

You talked about your third point and the inner workings. In your experience in law enforcement at all three levels, as well as your experience here, is there one specific aspect of training that should be targeted to our peace officers?

[Anita Gill]

Thank you for the question.

What I can say on that is that the general awareness and familiarity of how a port authority operates is a mystery to most people, including law enforcement. Going through the different levels of training that I received, there wasn't any specific training on a port authority or how it operates. It's a landlord port. Independent terminal operators are independent and the port authority administration doesn't have a say on what happens on container terminals, because they're independent.

It's those types of context questions that I think need to be answered first. Then we can go into the inner workings: how labour is dispatched, how the GPS on our trucks works, where they can get that information or how much notice CBSA has on what's in a container.

There are many pieces of information for the supply chain on how it comes in for them to really avail themselves of law enforcement to be able to have a better understanding and to pick out those areas where they feel they can do more investigation.

[Frank Caputo, Conservative, Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC]

Can I ask how long it took you to feel comfortable and you got up to speed in your position? You're talking about these layers of complexity. It sounds complex. I imagine it was at least months before you felt comfortable.

[Anita Gill]

I'm still learning. I've been there for 10 years.

[Frank Caputo, Conservative, Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC]

Wow.

Obviously, for people who don't know what they're dealing with, this could be tremendously challenging.

[Anita Gill]

Yes.

[Frank Caputo, Conservative, Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC]

One thing, and I don't know if it was touched upon, is the role of organized crime.

This goes to anybody who wants to intervene. In your experience, is this something that you just appreciate and understand as being present, or is this something you actually see blatantly in front of you when it comes to auto theft and organized crime?

[Félixpier Bergeron]

I will try to answer that.

We acknowledge that there might be some criminal organizations operating in the port. They are everywhere—at all sorts of points of entry, be they ports, land ports or other organizations. They are present and part of our society.

What we've done at the port over the years is manage the access and the identification of people working at the port, making it more difficult for them to operate openly in the ports.

That does not mean that they cannot bribe someone.

However, anything that goes in and out of the port is being captured electronically, either by identification or by biometrics.

The ports are now considered more of a conduit, not a destination, for the criminality. They do their stuff before the port and after the port. They don't do stuff in the port because the detection rates are too high for them.

[Frank Caputo, Conservative, Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC]

That's very good.

I have about 40 seconds. Does anybody else want to intervene on that question?

[Anita Gill]

Thank you.

I agree with Félixpier's answers.

We understand that organized crime does exist. It exists in any place that can be used to facilitate the crime that they want to happen. It is here to stay. We just need to collectively figure out how we can all help minimize it.

[The Chair, Liberal, Heath MacDonald]

Thank you.

We're going to move to Mr. Gaheer, please, for six minutes.

[Iqwinder Gaheer, Liberal, Mississauga—Malton, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you to the witnesses for appearing before the committee.

My questions, at least initially, are for the Montreal Port Authority. We've heard your opening testimony, but why is it that the port of Montreal is where most of the stolen vehicles leaving the country are exiting from?

Since this problem has arisen at a high scale at the port of Montreal, what has the Montreal Port Authority specifically done to combat this problem?

[Julien Baudry]

Thank you very much for your question, Mr. Gaheer.

The Port of Montreal is the second-largest container port in Canada, but it is also the main export platform to markets where criminals are able to sell stolen vehicles. I am thinking in particular of Africa and the Middle East. In addition, it is located six hours from the GTA and a few minutes from Montreal. Unfortunately, criminals have taken advantage of the fluidity of our facilities, our good performance and our proximity to markets, whether by truck or by train, to export stolen vehicles. We are very aware of this problem.

Over the past year, in particular, we have intensified discussions with our partners. Our colleagues from Vancouver mentioned it. They said that it was important for our police partners to have a clear understanding of the port reality. To achieve this, communication and mutual understanding efforts have been intensified. In addition, we are looking at technological solutions to make it easier to identify containers carrying stolen vehicles.

Having said that, I want to emphasize that it is very important for us that solutions be applicable across Canada. If we find a solution that applies only at the local level, that is to say in Montreal, we will only displace the problem to other ports, and criminals will take advantage of these shortcomings.

We want to continue to work collaboratively and talk with our partners to find other solutions, through our association, for example. We are open to discussion.

[Iqwinder Gaheer, Liberal, Mississauga—Malton, ON]

Thank you.

You mentioned the technology. Is the technology that you're using to search the containers the Montreal Port Authority's technology or is that the CBSA's technology? Do they have their own? Do you use it in conjunction?

[Félixpier Bergeron]

It's CBSA technology.

[Julien Baudry]

If I may, I would like to add something.

Any operation that involves the search or inspection of containers, whether at the time of importation or exportation, must be conducted by the CBSA.

However, we are definitely partners on the logistics side of things. For example, when a truck comes into the port, it may take up to 30 minutes to reach a terminal. Our hope is that inspection operations be performed with not only the fluidity, but also the good performance of the port in mind.

[Iqwinder Gaheer, Liberal, Mississauga—Malton, ON]

Sure.

I think for the folks who are watching this online, and for folks in general, there's some confusion about jurisdiction and what happens. There's the port authority. There's the CBSA. There's the local police of jurisdiction in that area. There's the police of the local jurisdiction where the car was stolen. I come from Peel Region in Mississauga, which is particularly hard hit by the car theft problem.

I'm confused. Let's say a car is stolen and is taken to the port of Montreal. At that point, when the car is in a container at the port of Montreal, can the local police—let's say the Peel police—come on their own, of their own volition, onto Montreal Port Authority property and search containers or not?

[Félixpier Bergeron]

We're not the best people to answer that question. You'd have to ask the different police of jurisdiction, because there's jurisdiction in all aspects of it, which we can't control. For us, at the port of Montreal, the only people allowed to open a container for inspection, either for import or export, are from the CBSA.

[Iqwinder Gaheer, Liberal, Mississauga—Malton, ON]

You already mentioned that the CBSA and RCMP have 24-hour access.

[Félixpier Bergeron]

Yes, they have 24-hour access.

[Iqwinder Gaheer, Liberal, Mississauga—Malton, ON]

Is that granted by the Montreal Port Authority, or is that granted through —

[Félixpier Bergeron]

It's granted by the Montreal Port Authority, and it cascades down to the terminals.

[Iqwinder Gaheer, Liberal, Mississauga—Malton, ON]

Technically, couldn't the Montreal Port Authority grant access to local police jurisdictions all across the country?