Public Safety Committee on May 9th, 2024

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

I can just respond to that before I return to my remarks, Chair.

The amendment is that we proceed to a particular order of business. It's a substantive motion, which means that members are able to debate it. It would seem to me to be not only related to the issue but to be the central issue to consider if the committee is to determine whether or not to proceed to a particular item of business. The central issue would be to consider the nature of the item of business that the committee would be proceeding to.

I will continue to make the case for why we should adopt the motion to proceed to that item of business by explaining the importance of the item of business to which I am proposing the committee proceed.

The motion is for us to resume consideration of my amendment to the report from the subcommittee, and that report from the subcommittee highlights, centrally, the issue of the Bernardo prison transfer.

Members will recall that back in the fall, Conservatives insisted that families of the victims of Paul Bernardo be heard on the issue of the prison transfer. There was a great deal of outrage in the wider community, but especially from those who had been most affected by these crimes, over the fact that Paul Bernardo was transferred to a medium security prison from a maximum security prison, and that there was no—

[Ron McKinnon, Liberal, Coquitlam—Port Coquitlam, BC]

I have a point of order.

[The Chair, Liberal, Heath MacDonald]

Mr. McKinnon has a point of order.

[Ron McKinnon, Liberal, Coquitlam—Port Coquitlam, BC]

It is again on relevance, please, as this is not pertaining to the motion before us.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Yes it is. This is the motion before us.

[Ron McKinnon, Liberal, Coquitlam—Port Coquitlam, BC]

The motion before us is to proceed to a specific order of business.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Yes, and that specific order of business is about the Bernardo transfer.

[The Chair, Liberal, Heath MacDonald]

If you're going to comment, please do so through the chair. We've had this discussion.

Mr. McKinnon, did you finish?

[Ron McKinnon, Liberal, Coquitlam—Port Coquitlam, BC]

Yes, for now. I'm sure I'll have more opportunities.

[The Chair, Liberal, Heath MacDonald]

Thank you.

Mr. Genuis, please go ahead

[Frank Caputo, Conservative, Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC]

May I respond to that point of order?

[The Chair, Liberal, Heath MacDonald]

If you don't have a point of order, no. Let's keep it going.

Go ahead, Mr. Genuis, please.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Thank you, Chair.

To Mr. McKinnon, there is nothing more relevant in a discussion about proceeding to an order of business than describing the nature of that order of business. There is no possible way to be more relevant than to talk about what exactly I'm talking about, which is why it's important for us to proceed to the order of business that I have proposed to the committee.

As I was saying, back in the fall, the Conservatives, and Conservatives alone, took the position of insisting that the families of the victims be heard from about the impact of this prison transfer on them, on their communities, and on how it had changed their lives.

At the time, we did use all of the procedural tools available to us, not because we enjoy the use of procedural mechanics as an end in and of themselves but rather because they were the only and necessary means to ensure that Canadians who had been brutalized by the actions of this criminal were able to have their day in Parliament. We did that so that we could hear and make recommendations to the House of Commons about possible changes to the prisoner transfer rules that would respond to the experiences and the insights of these families.

That is the purpose for which parliamentary committees exist. It is to hear and receive information. It is to hear, within the broader community of parliamentarians, experts in particular policy areas, but then to share that knowledge with the broader deliberative assembly that is Parliament so that those insights can be used.

[Taleeb Noormohamed, Liberal, Vancouver Granville, BC]

I have a point of order, Mr. Chair.

Since Mr. Genuis is keen to know which specific point of order I'm referring to, it's the point of order that deals with the repetition of points. Mr. Genuis has now made this point for a third time in this diatribe, so perhaps the chair might ask him to either move along to a different point or ask somebody else on the speaking order to speak.

[The Chair, Liberal, Heath MacDonald]

Thank you, Mr. Noormohamed.

Mr. Genuis, please stick to the topic.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Thank you, Chair.

I have not repeated myself. Maybe I have a little bit, to respond to repeated comments by my colleagues and to repeat refutation of points that have been remade by my colleagues opposite.

I would respectfully suggest to them that it's probably in their best interests to actually hear out the arguments and engage with them, rather than think that they're going to throw me off with these repeated points of order, because they will not, and their colleagues have found the same.

The purpose of committees, just to briefly sum up, is to inform the deliberations of the House, not simply to inform the small group of members who are on the committee. Therefore, it is the normal and proper thing in every case for a study to lead to a report to the House.

In the fall, we took the clear, firm, and principled position that the families had to be heard from, and having used all of the tools—

[Taleeb Noormohamed, Liberal, Vancouver Granville, BC]

I have a point of order, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Heath MacDonald]

Go ahead, Mr. Noormohamed.

[Taleeb Noormohamed, Liberal, Vancouver Granville, BC]

This is now the fifth time that Mr. Genuis has made the same point. I'm going to keep counting.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Which point have I repeated?

[Taleeb Noormohamed, Liberal, Vancouver Granville, BC]

Would the chair...?

[The Chair, Liberal, Heath MacDonald]

Thank you, Mr. Noormohamed.

Mr. Genuis, what he is saying is relevant. You're actually repeating yourself about what the committee is supposed to do and report back to the House.

Could you just move on from that, please?

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Yes, if that point is clear. I just keep getting interrupted mid-sentence.

Therefore, in the particular case of the Bernardo hearings, eventually, in spite of the opposition of other parties, we were able to compel an agreement for the committee to hear from families and representatives of the victims and have some of the very important, very powerful hearings that took place in the fall. People came here to be heard, with the expectation that what they shared would lead to action—yet sadly, here we are in practically the middle of May, and this committee has still not reported to the House on the Bernardo transfer.

This is in a context of Liberals in particular not wanting to study this issue at all. Now they are trying to block or prevent the reporting to the House on this matter. They seem to think that it is acceptable, in this case uniquely, following the pressure we exerted at that time to have hearings, but there's no report.

Our view is that the way to honour the families, to honour their sacrifice and their struggle in coming to testify, and also to try to improve our country and to incorporate their feedback, would be for us to prepare a report and to report to the House. Hopefully, that leads to policy changes, but I look at the timeline here, and the timeline is revealing. Normally, you would not only proceed to report but you would also proceed to report as quickly as possible after the hearings have been completed, yet here we are, six months later, and the government is trying to push this committee away from consideration of the Bernardo transfer.

[Ron McKinnon, Liberal, Coquitlam—Port Coquitlam, BC]

I have a point of order.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Absent the amendment that the Conservatives had proposed—