Oh. I'm so sorry. Thank you.
I note, Mr. Chair, that there is no appetite. In fact, my colleague, Mr. Généreux, had a bill that would have returned a very narrow calibre of offender to maximum security. I believe it was for two first-degree murders and dangerous offenders, if memory serves. Again, it was a very narrow category. Very few people have two first-degree murders. In my time practising criminal law, I think I prosecuted one first-degree murder. It is incredibly rare.
What did the Liberals do, including with people who had proximity to offences in relation to Magnotta and Bernardo? What did they do? They voted against it. What did the Bloc do? They voted against it. What did the NDP do? They voted against it. This was after we got this letter, which I am quoting from.
I will go on. They said that key information to have would be how many such people, serial killers like Bernardo and Magnotta, were moved under the Harper government. It is not unheard of or unreasonable that there are certain prisoners who should be classified and moved as such.
You'll hear no agreement from me. I've said repeatedly, and I'll say it again publicly: There is a place for minimum security; there is a place for medium security and there is a place for maximum security.
I think we all wish we lived in a world where everybody could be supervised in minimum security, with no fences, living a life that closely mirrors what a person would get on the street. It would be wonderful if we lived in a world like that. Unfortunately, we don't live in a world that permits it. We live in a world where there are Bernardos and Magnottas.
The question is, what do we do with that? Perimeter security aside, can this person escape?
The question, in my view, is actually one of justice. Is it just and appropriate that Bernardo and Magnotta have access to the amenities they have in medium security?
I go back to the letter writers, who hit the nail on the head. This devolved into a debate among so many people about recreation and whether this is appropriate. Let's dismantle that mistruth.
On recreation, are people saying there's no recreation in maximum security? I've been to a number of maximum-security jails—maybe even most in this country. I can tell you there is recreation in every single one of those facilities. It's not like you get moved from maximum to medium and then there's a gym. In fact, when I was at a federal institution in the Atlantic, a new unit design actually had exercise facilities joined to the unit, so that a person could safely exercise without actually having to be moved.
The argument was made of people just discounting exercise, and that people need recreation because it keeps them calmer. Do people in maximum security not need exercise to keep them calmer? In fact, you're actually dealing with a calibre of offender who is likely more dangerous. This is because the only reason you get to maximum security, generally, is that your escape and public safety risks are too high, or your institutional adjustment—that's what it's called; it's essentially your behaviour in jail—causes problems. That's what gets you to maximum security.
This whole notion of being against recreation couldn't be further from the truth. Why? Recreation is present, yet this was turned into a discussion by some, unfortunately, about recreation. The idea of prison recreation is, in my view, a discussion that is worthy of further debate. In fact, there might be people who would argue that there should be hockey rinks and tennis courts. Some may even argue that they should be in medium security, and that's a discussion I'd be happy to have.
Again, returning to what the letter writer said, this is a question of whether or not Paul Bernardo and Luka Magnotta should have access to such things.
The letter writers go on. This is the point they so eloquently make, which I wish I could say as clearly as them.
They said that further to the ice rink comment, no one is disputing that an ice rink could or should be at La Macaza and used for suitable medium-security offenders.
I underline “suitable”.
They went on to say that the debate is that Paul Bernardo should not be living in a medium-security facility at all, period.
I'm going to say that again, because I think it's very important, particularly for the people who voted for six meetings to one. Here it is: They said that further to the ice rink comment, no one is disputing that an ice rink could or should be at La Macaza and used for suitable medium-security prisoners. The debate is that Paul Bernardo should not be living in a medium-security facility at all, period. That is about as clear as you can get it, they wrote. This move should never have taken place.
I pause there to note that the discussion and the study of the Bernardo transfer commenced, I believe—and, Clerk, you can correct me if I'm wrong—in October 2023. As it stands now, based on the subcommittee report that we are debating, we don't even have a date for the report to be completed. That is how little consideration is being given to this committee, to Canadians generally and the victims specifically about the issue of the Bernardo transfer. We would rather talk about everything other than Bernardo and Magnotta.
It's clear to me that those are the marching orders of the Bloc. To their credit, the NDP voted for the six meetings. I will give them credit for that. The Bloc inexplicably put forward the motion to reduce it from six meetings to one, and the Liberals voted for it. They were all too happy to strike their witnesses, who they had said were all too necessary for this discussion.
Not only did we go from six meetings to one, but that meeting has not yet been scheduled. When is the meeting going to be scheduled? I ask that rhetorically, Chair, but when is the meeting going to be scheduled? When? When are we going to have this meeting? Are we going to go into the fall of 2024, or are we just going to have more pushing it down the way? It's pretty clear to me that the Liberals are happy to work with the Bloc and in some cases with the NDP.
It sure was very quick to be agreed here at the outset of the meeting, when you gave the floor to the Liberals—or when the past chair gave the floor to the Liberals, I should say—that there was an agreement there: “We don't want to talk about this. We want to talk about something else.”
We as Conservatives do want to talk about this, and I'll tell you right now, victims want to talk about this, and Canadians want to talk about this, and my Conservative colleagues and I will not lift our foot off the gas pedal when it comes to talking about this.
The letter continues, saying that it is the designation of prisoners of this calibre that is under severe scrutiny and question, not the facilities and amenities at La Macaza.
This paragraph absolutely nails it. They said that it is easy to get diverted and off track. When not directly impacted by these decisions, it is easy to brush things aside and simply say this isn't our job.
Again, I go back to the fact that I hope nobody in this room has ever been a victim of offences of this nature. If you have, I don't know what it's like, but I'm sorry for what you're going through. I can, however, say that people here are speaking from their hearts when talking about the direct impact. “Do not brush this aside.” This is what people are telling us when they come to us.
There were other letters that came to my inbox. I know they were cc'd to other members of this committee, and they didn't mince words—they know what those letters said.
It's so easy to say that we can't change this, or it's out of our hands. Well, it's quite easy to do that when you just delay the meeting. We don't want to talk about Bernardo now; let's talk about it in the fall. We don't want to talk about Magnotta now; let's talk about it in the fall. We have a draft report; let's not even discuss it. We don't want Bernardo in the news.
It's clear the Liberals don't want Bernardo in the news. The Liberals don't want Magnotta in the news. For some reason, the Bloc is prepared to help them with this. I don't understand.
They go on to say that it's so easy to say that we can't change this, or that it's out of our hands, but that as politicians, it is—capitalized “is”—our job.
I couldn't agree more. It is our job. People expect us to deal with things head on. We are parliamentarians. We are expected to deal with the tough issues. We are expected to say this: Commissioner Anne Kelly, why was Paul Bernardo transferred in the middle of the night? Commissioner Kelly, why wasn't adequate victim notification made? Commissioner Kelly, more information has come up about the Magnotta transfer—internal memorandums now—talking about the fact that we want to keep this quiet, even though when there is a heightened public interest, there is a basis to release this information.
If there is not a heightened public interest in the transfer of an offender with the notoriety and severe offences of Luka Magnotta, I'm not sure where that public interest would exist. His offences rank as some of the worst that anybody in this room has ever heard of. I feel sorry for the investigators who had to deal with that, for the people who had to see the photographs of that time after time.
Yet, here we are, saying, no, it doesn't reach the threshold of notoriety. We don't want to do that. I will go back to the letter. It says that as politicians, it is our job. I couldn't agree more. We are failing to do our job here.
I ask rhetorically, Chair, what will it take for this committee to talk about Magnotta? What will it take for this committee to talk about Bernardo? What will it take for this committee to table the draft report on the Bernardo transfer? I've been here for only two and a half years, so perhaps somebody can correct me afterwards. I'm trying to think of a time when it took so long for a study report to come to committee, especially after the hearings had wrapped up.
I believe, Clerk, you can help me out here. I'm not sure of the last date of the Bernardo hearings—likely sometime in January or February, maybe even in the fall they had come up. At this rate, we won't be dealing with the Bernardo transfer report until next fall, literally years after the transfer occurred, months after the committee did its business.
Why is this committee afraid to deal with the report? I'll go back to the letter again. It is our job. What are we so afraid of?
I return to the letter. It's your job to listen, help and implement change, it says.
Isn't it ever? It is our job to listen, to help and to implement change. If we won't listen to victims, who will we listen to? These victims saw this committee go from six meetings to the Liberals cheering on the amendment to go to one meeting.
Now we have the consequence of that, yet we still show up here and there's still no desire to address this.
One must wonder why they don't just want to rip off the band-aid. Let's just deal with Bernardo and let's just deal with Magnotta and be done with it. It happens; these transfers happen in the dead of night. It's almost like Correctional Service doesn't want anybody to know.
Commissioner Kelly, I'll tell you this: Canadians want to know, and I'll go even further and tell you that Canadians have a right to know. They have a right to know where their tax dollars are going and whether their tax dollars are being used effectively in managing some of the most dangerous and most notorious individuals. This is especially true when we talk about the use of drones in jail.
It's no secret that people like Bernardo and Magnotta in medium, and even in maximum.... I believe that over 150 cellphones were seized from one maximum-security jail in Canada in one year. Commissioner Kelly and her team have some answering to do. How is it that 150 cellphones were in maximum security in one year? I can get the exact statistic on this. I have it somewhere here. There are answers needed.
A simple fence would prevent it. When you have somebody like a Bernardo or a Magnotta in medium security, and not even in maximum.... It's a lot easier to get things like ceramic knives into medium security. I was in a jail a couple of weeks ago, and a drone had just dropped ceramic knives in there.