Public Safety Committee on March 1st, 2022

[The Chair, Liberal, Jim Carr]

Sorry, Ms. Dancho—

[Raquel Dancho, Conservative, Kildonan—St. Paul, MB]

Could you just comment?

We do believe there should be more resources at our border to check. They said that there were no resources to do that.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Jim Carr]

Minister, you have 12 seconds.

[Marco Mendicino, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

We need and we are investing more resources at the border.

When it comes to the ban of AR-15 and assault-style weapons, we are taking the advice of experts who know which of those categories of guns need to be banned.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Jim Carr]

Thank you, sir.

Sorry, colleagues, I'm a prisoner of the clock. You know that.

We now move to Mr. Chiang.

You have five minutes, not more or less. The floor is yours.

[Paul Chiang, Liberal, Markham—Unionville, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Good morning, Minister.

I would like to comment first. My comment and question will be directed to the RCMP and the Public Safety and Justice folks.

I did not hear about smart gun technology until this year. I didn't know that it could be an option to have smart gun technology. In this day and age, all sorts of technologies are in place to secure devices. The police have used two-factor authentication for years to protect their computers. They have e-tokens and passwords. As you know, automobiles have all kinds of safety features in them.

Back in 2018, there was the Danforth shooting, where two young ladies lost their lives. They were in the prime of their lives. The gun used in that shooting was a legitimate gun, but it was stolen from a gun dealer in Saskatchewan in 2015. There was a subsequent lawsuit against Smith & Wesson, alleging that smart gun technology is more than 20 years old, but has yet to be used on guns sold in the United States and Canada. According to the lawsuit, Smith & Wesson had entered into an agreement with the U.S. government in 2000 to incorporate smart gun technology in the design of new weapons in March 2003. That was not the case. The gun that was used in the Danforth shooting was manufactured in 2005.

Can you explain to this committee how we can limit the use of smart guns that have biometric restrictions, or these types of weapons to only the owners of the guns? Is it possible to limit them?

[Commr Brenda Lucki]

We definitely have to leverage technology. There's so much emerging technology when you talk about guns. There are chips and biometrics. In some senses, they can be used for good and in other senses they can be used for evil.

We need to ensure that we look at that technology.... I would make the comparison to years ago, when we first brought in credit cards. There was no technology in credit cards and they were used fraudulently en masse. When the industry started leveraging technology and bringing in preventative measures, we saw a reduction in credit card fraud. It's obviously not the same as far as the end result goes.

My point is that using technology to be able to trace a gun, find out where it came from, disable a gun when it's been stolen, for example, or allow an owner to be the only person to access it through biometrics would definitely increase safety with gun users. When a gun falls into the wrong hands, for example, through technology we would be able to disable it.

We have to start looking at the emerging technologies and apply them to firearms.

[Paul Chiang, Liberal, Markham—Unionville, ON]

In essence, you're saying if those technologies existed and were implemented, a stolen handgun would be a paperweight to somebody. It would be useless to the thief.

[Commr Brenda Lucki]

Yes. Depending on the technology, that very well could be the case.

[Paul Chiang, Liberal, Markham—Unionville, ON]

Would Mr. Dakalbab have anything to add to these points?

[Talal Dakalbab, Assistant Deputy Minister, Community Safety and Countering Crime, Department of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness]

No. I'm deferring to the expertise of the RCMP on this kind of technology. We concern our policy thinking on any possible incentives or ways to reduce gun violence and gun use. We work closely with the RCMP and CBSA on these matters.

Thank you.

[Paul Chiang, Liberal, Markham—Unionville, ON]

Thank you so much.

Going back to the RCMP and Commissioner Lucki since you're the federal police department, are most of the guns being used in violent crimes across Canada domestically stolen or smuggled guns?

[Commr Brenda Lucki]

When we look at where firearms are coming from, in general, we say that about 65% to 69% of the guns that we have traced are domestically—

[The Chair, Liberal, Jim Carr]

I'm sorry, Commissioner. You have 10 seconds left, please.

[Commr Brenda Lucki]

They're within the borders of Canada, but of the ones that we are tracing, approximately 13% that we've actually traced are coming across the border.

[The Chair, Liberal, Jim Carr]

Thank you.

I'd now like to ask Ms. Michaud to take the floor for two and a half minutes. It's all yours.

[Kristina Michaud, Bloc, Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Minister Mendicino, I'll use my two and a half minutes to talk about the new bill that you plan to introduce. It may be a new version of Bill C‑21. I hope so, because that bill didn't make many people happy, including the firearms lobby and the people who want more gun control.

I want to know your plans for this bill. Will you review the ban on certain firearms announced in the May 2020 order in council?

Ms. Dancho clearly explained the shortcomings of the ban. For example, firearms with exactly the same capabilities aren't on the list of prohibited weapons and are still legal in Canada, while other similar weapons are banned.

Currently in Canada, at least eight semi‑automatic centre‑fire rifles have been manufactured and three of them have been put on the market in the past few weeks. Manufacturers are taking full advantage of the loopholes in the 2020 order in council by constantly putting new guns on the market and bypassing these bans.

In a debate in the House, I suggested to the parliamentary secretary, Pam Damoff, who is here today, that perhaps we could proceed differently by defining a prohibited firearm in the Criminal Code, rather than taking a piecemeal approach by listing types of weapons. There are always new weapons coming on the market.

Could we explore the option of amending the provision directly in the Criminal Code instead of taking a piecemeal approach?

[Marco Mendicino, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

Thank you for the question, Ms. Michaud.

The government remains open to your suggestion that the Criminal Code be reviewed with a view to introducing amendments. This would be part of the work on the government's strategy.

In general, the new bill will bring back some of the initiatives that we tried to launch in the most recent session of Parliament. For example, the “red flag” law is very important if we want to solve the problems related to domestic violence between intimate partners. I'm also thinking of the “yellow flag” law through which we want to do more to address the handgun issue.

We made a commitment with all our provincial and territorial partners. We worked on this issue last week.

We'll work together with you and with all members of Parliament on this bill.

[The Chair, Liberal, Jim Carr]

Thank you, Minister Mendicino.

Next we'll go to Mr. MacGregor for a round of two and a half minutes.

The floor is yours. Talk fast.

[Alistair MacGregor, NDP, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Following Ms. Michaud's line of questioning and what Ms. Dancho brought up, it is a fact that the OIC put in place in May of 2020 did ban some firearms, but there still are some that are legal and which have the exact same ability to shoot. They're semi-automatic rifles. They could hold large capacity magazines, but there's a difference in appearance. I have constituents who did own the now prohibited weapons. I have constituents who own variants that are very much the same as the prohibited ones but are still legal. I guess a lot of them might have questions on whether the government will extend the OIC to ban those firearms.

I guess what we're asking for, Minister, is, don't you think it would be worth it to have some certainty where Parliament could have a fulsome debate on this and where the Criminal Code could have an actual definition of what we're dealing with here?

[Marco Mendicino, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

I do, too, Mr. MacGregor, and I think that the short answer is that, as I said to Ms. Michaud, we are looking at a variety of options for the legislation that will come back. I'm keen to study closely the potential for looking at order in council solutions, but equally, whether or not there may be some other ways in which we can strengthen gun control through legislative amendments under the Criminal Code or the Firearms Act.

I just want to assure you that, contrary to what some of our colleagues in the Conservative Party may suggest around taking decisions to ban certain firearms because they look scary, that's not the way we make decisions. We make decisions on the basis of the advice that we get from experts who look at deadly force, who look at the ability to manipulate those guns to carry out even more deadly force—

[Alistair MacGregor, NDP, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

I understand that, Minister, but it is a fact that there are some that are legal and some that are now prohibited that have the exact same abilities.

[Marco Mendicino, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

That's why, as I have said, we're certainly open to working with you and other colleagues in the chamber to look at both administrative as well as legislative solutions.

[Alistair MacGregor, NDP, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

[Marco Mendicino, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

And look, you have 30 seconds left.